An FWD Challenge

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi gals & guys

Here is our latest challenge. So long as it doesn't get stolen in the next week we'll be dragging this back to the Museum restoration alley. Research is underway but we need some help. Richard, your name has been mentioned. I'm getting material from Rick Cove and Tony Luke also got a mention. The scripting on the wheel is "The Four Wheel Drive Auto Company Clintonville, Wis".

Bob

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Scripting on the transfer case.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Hi Bob....
After looking at the "Remains" and checking out my manual on the FWD SU-COE I think that this is a much earlier model...maybe from the 20's-30's era..The rad is too far forward ,a foot or two ,from the looks of my manual chassis and the wheels are from pre war design...
The transfer case is not right for that model and appears to be an earlier version.....
The transfer cases in the later model were a very distinctive chain drive type..
The wheels could be from a HAR model which had a six spoke cast hub and spoke section which clamped to the wheel type "R" rim with a wedge ring and triangular rim clamps..The rim size would be 20x8......
Keep us posted...

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Bob..
Just a clarification to my previous post...
The HAR model had the six spoke hubs and yours show eight spoke hubs that again may indicate the earlier design ,but the assembly method may be the same...
And typical of FWD design..

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Bob Moseley
Hi gals & guys
Research is underway but we need some help. Richard, your name has been mentioned. I'm getting material from Rick Cove and Tony Luke also got a mention. The scripting on the wheel is "The Four Wheel Drive Auto Company Clintonville, Wis".

Bob,
This appears to be a FWD Model B of WW1 vintage, what a find!
They were introduced in 1912 and looking at the transfer box photo it looks like the patent is dated 1909 (?). The wheels are probably later additions as they would have originally had solid tyres. Was there any wording on the radiator top tank? They normally have the full company name along Clintonville, Wisc.
According to Bart's book, they were also made Kissel, Mitchell and Premier during 1917-18 and in 1916, Peerless built 500 for Britain. If there is no inscription, may be it is a contract built vehicle?
I have seen a restored one on the road in England, will see if I can trace the owner, he may be able to help you.

Richard

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Attached is image of a wheel that has all the scripting detailed in my original post.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Image of near-side front quarter

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Image of radiator full frontal

[Max Hedges]

Bob

We have a book on U S MIlitary Wheeled Vehicles by Fred Crimson it shows photos and information on the model B I think we bought it in Sydney somewhere. Production started in 1912 it was a 3 - 5 ton model and its speed was 14 mph the power plant for all FWD model B was a wisconsin 4 cylinder 36 horespower which sat directly under the cab. three automobile manufacturers were involved in the production during WW 1 Mitchell, Kissel and Premier. There are also some good photos of different models.

Max

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The War Department placed huge orders for FWD trucks, as has been said, by 1917. However the company could not cope and so farmed out orders to other companies. After the war the Four Wheel Drive Auto Company Limited [later FWD] was established in the Great White Elephant, namely the Slough Depot in Buckinghamshire, which became the Slough Trading Estate. The FWD company purchased ex-WD trucks and refurbished them for civilian use. I wonder if any weree xported? They existed from 1919 until around 1925 from memory.

[Mike Kelly]

Chris Clemons restored one of these in Tasmania around 25 years ago . It was sold when he closed the museum around 1990 ?

I dont recall who bought it , but thought I would let you know there is a restored one in Australia somewhere . I think it was pictured in a W & T .

Mike

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Thanks guys for your interest. We have now secured the "remains" and research is continuing. Information from Rick Cove in Victoria and a Clintonville source is tending to suggest a mid to late 1930s version. Once I get to the truck and go over it with a fine tooth comb I may be able to come up with some better results. There was one in West Australia until 1999 but has possibly been sold overseas. More of our cultural heritage lost. The attached image of the WA one is from Rick.

Keep you posted - Bob

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi gals and guys

I'm back after a couple of weeks J-Curve learning about this truck. My findings to date are that this is a FWD Model B manufactured between 1914-1918 by the The Four Wheel Drive Auto Company of Clintonville, Wisconsin, USA or one of its licensed manufacturers namely Peerless of Cleveland, Ohio; Premier of (??); Mitchell of (??) and Kissel of (??). The trucks sold to the UK were without a body that was subsequently designed and fitted by the British.

FWD Model Bs In General

1. 1914 - two truck sent to the UK for evaluation.
2. By end of 1914 - 288 trucks exported to UK and 88 to Russia.
3. By 1915 trucks had been exported to the UK, France, Russia, Spain, Portugal, Brazil and Argentina. The Germans inadvertently obtained seven trucks when they captured a ship.
4. 1916 - 500 trucks were built by Peerless for the UK.
5. 1917-1918 - Kissel, Mitchell and Premier built under licence.
6. End of WW1 - 16000 Model Bs had been built.
7. 2985 Model Bs were bought by the UK of which 1599 were used in France. Eventually most returned to the UK and refurbished by The British Four Wheel Drive Tractor Lorry Company in their factory at Slough, west of London.
8. End WW1 - 8000 trucks in France.

I believe our truck is one of the 2985 that later went through Slough. I'm currently tracking its ownership in Australia and that is also turning out to be really interesting.

I have also managed to secure a photocopy of a July 1917 publication titled "The Handbook of the Three-Ton Truck Chassis F.W.D. Model B1917" written bt the Ordnance Department USA. This was courtesy of members of a UK re-enactment group called the Pershing Doughboys, in particular brothers Steve and Tim Gosling. I can't thank these guys enough so wherever I can I am advertising their assistance to my research.

I've attached an image of what our truck could possibly have looked like. There are differences between the USA ones and those manufactured for the British War Department, but that's another story.

Whilst I'm here, the Gosling brothers have requested a search for the following items, namey solid tyres for lorries? Dunlop stopped making them a couple of years ago. They are after a pair of 720x120 and four 881x120. They are also looking for a differential for a Dennis or Thornycroft Subsidy lorry and a Peerless engine.

I am looking for a Wisconsin or Dorman engine for our truck.

Keep you posted - Bob

[Lars Ulvestad]

"I have also managed to secure a photocopy of a July 1917 publication titled "The Handbook of the Three-Ton Truck Chassis F.W.D. Model B1917" written bt the Ordnance Department USA."

Bob,
Original copy for sale on eBay (very short time left):
F W D three ton truck chassis Model B 1917 WW

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bob Moseley
Whilst I'm here, the Gosling brothers have requested a search for the following items, namey solid tyres for lorries? Dunlop stopped making them a couple of years ago. They are after a pair of 720x120 and four 881x120.

Bob,

Last year Nigel Watson told me about a company capable of rerubbering Universal Carrier wheels without the use of moulds. What they basically do is build up a solid tyre by winding a rubber strip around the rim, cure it, and then turn the rubber down to the desired size on a CNC-lathe. Nigel, can you correct/add to this?

Hanno

[Bob Carriere]

Solid rubber tires are still being made for collectors......

A few years ago while on holidays in the Maine area I stumbled on an antique truck show ... they had a particular mix of very heavy trucks from the 1920 to 1950.... the early model.... Macks in particular had the open C cabs... chain drives and ran on huge solid rubber tires...... at the same show were reproductions companies selling everything to rebuild... body panels.. engine parts and services for remoulding solid rubber tires on existing antique wheels of various size and width....... I am sure the process could be used for Universal carriers wheels.... the tires they were showing even had identification lettering raised on the side of the tires which probably implies a moulding process fo some sort.

From a manufacturing process it would make sense to windup some pure rubber compound on a bare steel wheel (same as a Bagdad recapped tire)and then cut it back to size but they would still need some press moulding for the curing/cooking and lettering..

Anyways if one was to search the large antique USA market I am sure that suppliers could be found.

Any Forum members connected to the large antiwue truck events????

My 5 cents worth...

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Yes, both FWD and Peerless had depots in the Slough Trading Estate, and refurbished and sold on FWD and Peerless trucks [and Peerless cars in the case of the latter].

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

David
A couple of images I was given during my reasearch into our 1917 FWD. The caption on this one is:

"View of ex-Army vehicles awaiting re-conditioning at The Dump, Slough, circa 1929. This site subsequently became the Slough Trading Estate, where the Citroen Works was situated."

I have no idea the title of the book.

Bob

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

The caption on this one is:

A RHD Citroen Type A seen passing through the offices of the Sough Trading Company circa 1921. This is one of the earliest photographs of a Citroen in the UK.

Bob

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I would have said that the top one was taken around 1919-20. The FWD company had a factrory unit on the Estate as you know, and refurbished and sold FWD and the licence-built trucks until at least 1925. The Citroen plant went into production in 1925, and I have a photo of the assembly line around 1925 showing some of the operations.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

David
You are correct, it was a typing error. When upgrading my computer I bought a wireless keyboard and mouse and once in a while the signal gets missed, or in this case my fault.
Bob

[Alex van de Wetering]

Bob,

Do you know this site:

http://mil-trucker.narod.ru/FWD.htm

My Russian is not very good, but some translating with altavista bablefish should do the trick!

Good luck with the "project"

Alex van de Wetering, The Netherlands

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Alex
Thankyou. More images for my research folder.
Bob