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  #1  
Old 09-03-05, 22:48
Nigel Watson's Avatar
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Default Ford Truck Model letters

Difficult to find out whether this has been discovered in this forum discussion as yet but I think that the letter suffixes! are likely to be:

"D" as in 11D is the body type ie 3/4 ton
"Y" as in 11Y is the body type 1 ton
"T" as in 11T is the body type Regular Truck
"W" as in 11W is the body type Cab over engine

so C191W is (C) Canadian built, (1) 1941, (9) 95bhp engine, (1) 101" wheelbase and (W) Cab over engine body.

and....wait for it!!!

C11AD is (C) Canadian built, (1) 1941, (1) 85bhp engine, (A) ?, (D) 3/4 ton station wagon body.

So David what's the "A" stand for? Its in the place where it should refer to the chassis size. The C11AD had a chassis size of 114". I also believe that the shorter chassis models didn't have the chassis no. in the prefix and it was only the 101", 158", 176" which did.

Sorry if this is going over old ground everyone but I couldn't find out if this had been finalised!! Now I will find out!!

Nigel
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  #2  
Old 10-03-05, 08:59
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Default Hmmmm!

My Canadian data book says that the 'A' suffix dates back to the 1938 Models at least, possibly the 1937, and continued to 1941 at least. I wonder if it signified passenger or light commercial chassis?
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  #3  
Old 11-03-05, 10:47
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Default Re: Hmmmm!

Quote:
Originally posted by David_Hayward
My Canadian data book says that the 'A' suffix dates back to the 1938 Models at least, possibly the 1937, and continued to 1941 at least. I wonder if it signified passenger or light commercial chassis?
But then the 'D' seems to be saying that! Perhaps it donates a vehicle based on an early chassis size. Mmmm?

Nigel
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  #4  
Old 11-03-05, 12:23
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Default Ford suffixes

The suffix relates to the Chassis model, not the Body style. "A" is the standard Ford Passenger car chassis and has been used for cars from 1938 (81A or C81A) to well into the '50s (1951 C1BA). It applies wether the car is a four door, two door, station wagon, etc. We have looked at these suffixes before, but you're right, it was never really finalised. Let's try:
"A" Passenger Car
"C" Commercial Vehicle, 3/4 ton
"Y" Medium Truck, 1 ton
"T" Full Truck, 1 1/2, 2 or 3 ton
"W" Cab over Engine (Civvy)
"S" Special Chassis variant, Civvy (mostly 4x4 and/or winch)
"Q" Special Chassis variant, Military (mostly 4x4 and/or winch)
"R" Rear Engine
"F" RHD
"D" 9.00-13 tyres (David's suggestion as this only appears on a few vehicles, all seemingly with 9.00-13 tyres!)

These seem to be the rule, and there are plenty of exceptions (eg a F15A is not a passenger car version of an F15!). If a suffix does not appear in a model designation when it should, then it is because there were no other options available. For example, an early FGT is C291QF, and later versions were changed to C291Q. The later versions do not have an F because there were no intentions to build LHD gun tractors. That said, why does it have a Q when there were no 4x2 gun tractors? Ask Henry! (In this case it stands for winch).
Therefore a C11A could be a standard Light Car or Station Wagon, and a C11AD would be the same with 9.00-13 tyres (No car versions were produced, only wagons), and a C11ADF is a wagon (Could also be a car, but none were made) with 9.00-13 tyres and RHD.
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  #5  
Old 11-03-05, 13:35
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Default U-hoo!

Also:

"U" Dump
"B" Bofors?
"H" Winch or lack of winch when one normally fitted?
"R(F)" Central drive [Rear-engined]
"(Special)" Special adaptation/order?

By the way, I would not have asked Henry...he was head of the Ford Motor Company. Instead I would have asked Monsieur L. Giroux, Auto Engineering, Windsor as it was Ford Motor Company of Canada Limited that applied these designations and Giroux applied his name to spec sheets detailing model numbers and production data from 1939-42.

Ford of Canada was only a partial subsidary of Ford of Dearborn, and owned all overseas subsidaries excluding Ford Motor Company Limited, London & Dagenham, England; Ford-Werke AG, Koln, etc. and possibly the Ford Hungary and Ford Egypt, Alexandria operations.

There must be a list somewhere in Ford of Canada's archives, now possibly in Dearborn post-slave labour claims, that explains the designation system for Model Numbers?

Of course the DND used 'A' for 4 x 4 drive; 'H' for '6 x 4'; 'X' for 6 x 6 drive, so where does the C8AX come in, as it is a 15-cwt. chassis not 8-cwt. and arguably a completely different animal from the C8A HUP? Also we have 'T' for tractor, as in the F60T, 'B' for Bofors, and 'C' as a prefix to signify Modified Conventional Pattern, e.g. CC60/FC60S and L, and the FC602S/L
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  #6  
Old 11-03-05, 13:46
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Default Carrier model numbers?

I forgot that Windsor also used interesting Model Numbers on the Carriers, e.g.:

Ford Model:
C01UC
C21UCM
C21UCG
C31UCW

Did 'UC' stand for 'Universal Carrier'? Dagenham I think used 'AOP' for Armoured Observation Post initially.

However, I have yet to find out what the FOX Model Number was!
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  #7  
Old 11-03-05, 22:28
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Default Re: U-hoo!

Quote:
Originally posted by David_Hayward
By the way, I would not have asked Henry...he was head of the Ford Motor Company. Instead I would have asked Monsieur L. Giroux, Auto Engineering, Windsor as it was Ford Motor Company of Canada Limited that applied these designations and Giroux applied his name to spec sheets detailing model numbers and production data from 1939-42.
No, the "A, C, Y, T, W and S" were standardised chassis nomenclature by Ford USA and the system was used by all other Ford regions, eg E83W was an English COE van, C01T was a Canadian built 01T, a G81A is a Koln built 1938 Passenger Car, etc. These are Ford's Chassis engineering codes. The other codes you mention David, are vehicle model codes, so F15A, F30B, F60H, F60T or F60S don't fall into this system.

The DND codes are a different system again. This was to overcome the different (confusing) practices of each manufacturer. The Ford F60L has a Ford engineering code of C298QF, the Chev C60L has it's own GM code of 8443. The DND system recognises that these two numbers don't bear any similarity to each other for what are essentially similar vehicles, so the DND code gives them F-60448-M and C-60448-M. This tells us they are either Ford or Chev, 60cwt, 4 wheels, 4 driven wheels, 158"wb and Military cab. :
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  #8  
Old 12-03-05, 00:20
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Default Brilliant

Brilliant everyone. Thats what I like, all the loose ends being tied up. Thanks. I shall now print it out and file it with my U016TQFH(Special) ! A beer for anyone to work that one out exactly please!
Tony? David?

Nigel
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  #9  
Old 12-03-05, 00:56
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Default Thoughts

Tony, I owe an apology as I took up your point about the DND designation of the F15/F15A etc. and expanded it and allowed there to show how Model Numbers and DND designations owed nothing to each other. I confused readers.

I am not sure I agree about the independence of the Ford Model series. Whilst basic chassis type model numbers were shared between the USA, Canada, Germany, England, Romania, South Afica, and Australia, the Windsor Plant under Stan Ellis created unique designs that owed little to the Dearborn versions excepting in a major way the Forward Control/COE designs that Windsor did not have pre-1940. The Canadian model numbers were unique because they used the standard Ford system and were adapted for each Windsor design or adaptation in the case of the MCPs. I have studied the DND papers on the development of the CMPs and it is abundently clear that Windsor were on their own and acted independently of Dearborn and in concert with GM of Canada [which was largely GM Corporation-owned] save that they relied on the US company for the provision of components and expertise when Windsor were not able to source themselves. Whilst many Canadian Fords used identical model numbers to the US versions, with 'C' prefix to confirm Windsor assembly, plus as has been said US-style suffixes, the Canadians were also acting independently. Even Dagenham used the US-style model numbers and suffixes and only went totally independent in 1951 [with the Consul and Zephyr cars: EOTA etc.] .

Then again we have to add the 'E' prefix for Dagenham-assembled Canadian chassis from 1940-2, i.e. 'EC' prefixes in front of the Canadian model number. Dagenham also used 'W' prefixes in front of the imported US chassis and used their 'WOT' series designations for War Office /Ministry of Supply contracts with a sequential suffix that did not pander to the worldwide Ford model numbering system and yet the chassis themselves were either adapated standard chassis or purpose-designed.

From my notes:

W0A1 Ford V-8 3.6 3-spd 9 0 saloon staff car
W0C1 Ford V-8 3.6 4-spd 9 4 8-cwt.
W0A2 Ford V-8 3.6 3-spd 9 0 4 door estate car
W0T2: see below
W0T3 Ford V-8 3.6 4-spd 11 11 30-cwt.
W0T6 Ford V-8 3.6 4-spd 11 11 3-ton 4 x 4; Forward-Control
W0T8 Ford V-8 3.6 4-spd 11 11 30-cwt. 4 x 4; Forward-Control
W0T9 Ford V-8 3.6 4-spd CAPLAD prototype rear-engined based on W0T6 chassis


'WOC1 was a Ministry of Supply order Model 01C, which were in fact supplied by Ford, USA, as a 1940 Model with 30 h.p. V-8. ' WOT1 was a 6-wheeled 143-inch truck chassis with 42 7/16-inch Sussex bogie conversion for the Ministry of Supply and Air Ministry for the RAF, with 30 h.p. V-8 engine [WOT1 was s.w.b., WOT1A l.w.b., the R.A.F. using them for barrage balloon winches etc. WOT3 and WOT4 were replaced by WOT5, which was a six-wheeled Fordson Sussex load carrier'.


'WOT2 A GS infantry truck aeroscreens and a sheeted rear body (no tilt frame)
WOT2 B As the A model but with a tilt frame covered rear body referred to as a van body
WOT2 C evolution of the A model, but still with aeroscreens and other small changes.
WOT2 D as the B model, but with windscreen changes again. Still tilt frame and cover...
WOT2 E Infantry truck, fully enclosed cab and full windscreen, wooden body, tilt frame and cover.
WOT2 F As E but without the tilt frame and cover and with a steel body. Still titled infantry truck
WOT2 H Appears similar to the to the E model but possibly with out the tilt frame and cover'.

**************************************************

I thought it might be helpful to confirm the GM of Canada model numbers for CMPs and MCPs. CMPs:

8420 C8
8421 C15
8440 CGT
8441 C30S/C30
8442 C60S
8443 C60L
8444 C15A
8445 C8A
8446 Fox and Rhino
8447 Otter and CAPLAD
8448 C8AX
8449 C15TA
8660 C60X

To this must be added all the theoretically available MCP Chevrolet, Maple Leaf and GMC trucks. This is a link to my list of 1940 and 1941-45 trucks by Model Number, etc. BUT not all were actually produced in the war despite them all being listed by GM of Canada.

http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/.../YEAR CODE.htm

Note that '8' was the CMP series, whereas Chevrolet & ML was '1' and GMC '9' as a prefix to the Model number, then '4' and '6' was the series, and '2' was 4 x 2, '4' 4 x 4 and '6' '6 x 6' drive, with the last digit applied sequentially and arguably chronologically as each chassis type was signed-off, ranging from '0' to '9' with the C8/C15 and C60X in seperate series from the 4 x 4 series.

Tony reminds us of the DND series F-60448-M etc., which relates to capacity, wheels, drive and a sequential number. I have I think all these codes for Ford and GM if anyone needs them.

Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 12-03-05 at 01:29.
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  #10  
Old 13-03-05, 15:28
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Default Re: Ford suffixes

Looking at the Ford Model ID Chart, the list is as follows:
"A" Passenger
"B" Bus (rear engine)
"C" Commercial
"D" Ton Truck
"T" 1 Ton Truck
"Y" 1 Ton Truck
"W" 1 Ton C.O.E.
"U" 1 Ton Dump Truck
Getting closer and closer to The Definitive Ford Model Designation List!

H.
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  #11  
Old 13-03-05, 15:51
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Default Re: Thoughts

Quote:
Originally posted by David_Hayward
From my notes:
W0T3 Ford V-8 3.6 4-spd 11 11 30-cwt.
W0T6 Ford V-8 3.6 4-spd 11 11 3-ton 4 x 4; Forward-Control
W0T8 Ford V-8 3.6 4-spd 11 11 30-cwt. 4 x 4; Forward-Control
David,

To keep your records straight, the WOT3 wheelbase is 11' 11 1/2", as is the WOT6, but the WOT8 is 9' 10"

Richard
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  #12  
Old 13-03-05, 17:51
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Default 8440

Here's a shot of the underside of the bonnet of a CGT in Australia where we had the practice of painting the nomenclature including year of manufacture, although there are many different variations. Some gun tractors for instance have simply "GT 1943"



Source

This is the underside of the bonnet of my FGT, again with non standard nomenclature:



"C291 F.A.T. 4X4" According to Mike Cecil this is typical of the sort of hand painted nomenclature applied at the Ford factory in Geelong.

Source
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  #13  
Old 13-03-05, 19:08
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Default Thanks!

Richard, I am obliged.

I have jyst checked and the w.b. list is:

WOT1 143 1/2 + 42 7/16 inches with 6 wheeled Sussex conversion
E917T 157" + 42 7/6" with Sussex conversion
WOT2 105" based on the Model 61 chassis modified
WOT3A/B/C/D 143 1/2"
WOT6 143 1/2"
WOT8 118"


I suspect that the WOT5 was in fact the above E917T as against the E987T/E917T with either Surrey or Sussex conversions. The above were for the SA Defence Ford and RAF.
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Old 14-03-05, 10:51
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Default Re: C11ADF

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Smith
"D" 9.00-13 tyres (David's suggestion as this only appears on a few vehicles, all seemingly with 9.00-13 tyres!)

Therefore a C11A could be a standard Light Car or Station Wagon, and a C11AD would be the same with 9.00-13 tyres (No car versions were produced, only wagons), and a C11ADF is a wagon (Could also be a car, but none were made) with 9.00-13 tyres and RHD.
In C11AD Information Wanted we refined our knowledge about Ford station wagon suffixes to the following status:

Known Ford Station Wagon models:
- C11AD
- C11ADF (1941 model, 9.00-13 tyres)
- C11AS (6.00-16 tyres)
- C21AS (basically 1942 station wagon)
- C29ADF
in which:
C = Canadian design
1st digit = model year; 1 = 1941 model, 2 = 1942 model
2nd digit = engine type; '1' indicates the 85-hp engine, '9' the 95-hp engine
A = 4x2 car chassis with 114" (1941) or 118" wheelbase (1942)
D = unknown
F = right-hand drive
S = unknown

Pictures of the C11ADF show it with 9.00-13" tyres. Vanderveen notes the C11ADF has a "full-floating truck-type rear axle with open propeller shaft and semi-epileptic springs (as Ford C011DF - F8)". My guess is the "D" denotes the 13" tyres, F8 rear axle and I beam 8-cwt truck type front axle combination.
The "S" probably denotes Standard, as in fitted with 6.00-16" tyres. What did the standard 1941-42 car axle setup look like? Transverse leaf spring with propeller shaft running down a torque tube?
Both types had a front axle with transverse leaf spring, common on Fords of that era.

Re. the F stands for right-hand drive: this means the C11AD and C11AS were left-hand drive Wagons supplied to the Canadian Army for domestic use (similar to their US counterparts, if they had them?)

For scans of the relevant pages from Gregg and Vanderveen see http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/station_wagons.htm


Hope this helps,
Hanno
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  #15  
Old 14-03-05, 12:22
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Default Dagenham listing

Ford Dagenham model listing

I added in the DND official references and also the reference to assembly at Slough but otherwise the info was taken from the 1942 Dagenham model listing.
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  #16  
Old 15-03-05, 23:40
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Default ID No. help please

The 1940 6x4 Trucks which went to the SDF during the war with searchlight bodies on, what would have been their designation?
They presumably were converted to RHD by Dagenham and even had the searchlight body put on/shipped out by Dagenham.

Thanks
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  #17  
Old 15-03-05, 23:49
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Default SADF 6 x 4

They were Fordson E917T with the Sussex conversion from County Commercial Cars Limited. As such they were factory rhd from Dagenham.

The SA trucks were purchased by the Ministry of Supply, whereas the RAF barrage balloon trucks with winch were supplied to the Air Ministry. They both had long bogies with 7 3/4 articulation, with auxiliary gearbox and 9 x 20 tyres on the former and 9.00 x 16 tyres on the latter.
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Old 16-03-05, 00:16
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Default Other 6x4s

David thanks. Were there other 6x4 Fords which may have gone to SA during the war? Especially with the 1940/41 Cab and bonnet configuration. I have a picture of one crossing a pontoon carrying bridge sections. It's in the Springbok War Record book and if I could work out how this photo attach thing on this forum works I would post a pic.

I've tried Geoff, Hanno, I've tried. Read all the instructions and attached file but to no avail. Doesn't seem to want us Scots posting pics!! As The Bruce said "Try, Try, try again...." etc.
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Old 16-03-05, 08:54
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Default Wot?

Nigel, you could always send me the pix to post for you. I would have thought that the WOT1 might have been supplied but I have a photo [Xerox] from the IWM showing one of these E917T searchlight trucks and it appears that they had the '40 Ford front end although in theory they were '39 Models.
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Old 16-03-05, 23:18
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Default

A very small question amongst the questions.

I have seen photos of 38-39-40 Ford four door sedans with the 9:00X13 wheel and tyre equipment and of course the fairly numerous 41 Ford Wagon but never a 41 Ford four door with that wheel/tyre combo. I seem to think I have also seen at least a 40 Ford wagon with 9:00X13 equipment but not a 42.

On the other hand, I have numerous photos of the 41 Ford four door as a US staff car, also the 1942 models both sedan and wagon in US service.

Sorry to go on so long, but does anyone have photos or links to any of the above I mentioned that I have not seen with the 9:00X13 setup???
Bill
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Old 02-07-05, 23:00
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Default 'S' suffix

I wonder whether 'S' also stood for 'Scout Car' in the case of the Lynx 1 and Lynx 11..C19SR and C29SR, where 'R' stood for rear-engined?
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Old 02-07-05, 23:14
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Default

David:
You must be terribly bored. Last post on this thread was almost 3 1/2 months ago

Cheers
Bill
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Old 03-07-05, 09:17
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Default !

No, just as with the answer requested from Deep Thought about the answer to everything, I need to now the answer to the Ford model designations!

Seriously, I am editing and writing books and there are so many holes in my database about Ford trucks and CMP-based vehicles. The recent Lynx thread confirrmed the Lynx 1 and 11 Model Numbers, so that was possibly the last ones to add to the list unless anyone knows any more Fords not covered?
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Old 26-02-20, 16:11
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Default

Although this thread is ancient, I thought these documents might be of interest to everyone. I'm sure I had already sent them to the late, great David Hayward years ago.
Attached Thumbnails
Ford American WWII Production.jpg   Ford Government Models.jpg   Ford WWII.jpg  
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Old 26-02-20, 22:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Kreiner View Post
Although this thread is ancient, I thought these documents might be of interest to everyone. I'm sure I had already sent them to the late, great David Hayward years ago.
Thanks Bill, that is a great overview.

Here's a picture showcasing much of the Ford-built equipment in your lists.

Click image for larger version

Name:	84395447_2740628992682734_797587311041708032_n.jpg
Views:	13
Size:	102.7 KB
ID:	112269
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  #26  
Old 27-02-20, 00:36
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Default

Seems to be just Ford USA figures, not the whole WW2 production figures.

Just adding CMPs, MCPs, Carriers, commercial trucks and cars alone built by Ford Canada would add 600,000 vehicles (almost every one with a Ford V8 engine), not including the various other contributions to the war effort.
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Old 27-02-20, 19:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Smith View Post
Seems to be just Ford USA figures, not the whole WW2 production figures.

Just adding CMPs, MCPs, Carriers, commercial trucks and cars alone built by Ford Canada would add 600,000 vehicles (almost every one with a Ford V8 engine), not including the various other contributions to the war effort.
That's correct. I have the following for Dagenham. In the thread Ford Canada Conventional and Modified Vehicles I posted whatever I have on Canadian and Australian Ford.
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Ford Dagenham WWII Vehicle Production.jpg   Ballard-1.jpg   Ballard-2.jpg  
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  #28  
Old 27-02-20, 21:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post
Thanks Bill, that is a great overview.

Here's a picture showcasing much of the Ford-built equipment in your lists.

Attachment 112269
I love that photo! I will save it.
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