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  #1  
Old 04-03-03, 15:01
James E. Roy James E. Roy is offline
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Default F.A. Gun Tractor.

I have a 1940, Ford 4x4 with a Type 11 cab on a 101" WHEELBASE. The fellow that I bought it from said that it was an F.A.Gun Tractor. He based this on the fact that it has 20" rims. It has a regular cab but no rear body. There are no model plates on the door, nor does it appear that there ever was. The serial number on the frame is rusted away; all I can make out are the last 3 characters...82F. The original motor is gone. On the rear frame cross member, there are two numbers...0?1 over 5035. The first number could be 011 or 071 or possibly 0F1. It doesn't look to me like it ever had a winch, although the vendor said that a previous owner had kept it when he bought the vehicle in the 1960s. There are no fairleads. It appears to have a one-speed transfer case. It does have a PTO but I don't see a tire pump. The other units of this model, that I have seen around here, all have overload springs on back; mine doesn't. One even had one piece rims. Is this an F15 or a Gun Tractor? Did early gun tractors have the "crew-cab" type of body or a regulsr GS rear body? What about those other units (type 11 0r 12?) with the overload springs? Incidentally, my unit came with a DND Instruction Book, Aug. 1940. Also, I have my eye on a 1942 carrier.
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  #2  
Old 04-03-03, 16:10
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default

James,

Check your chassis with the factory photo of an Cab 11 or 12 FAT chassis below:

(Source: http://www.oldcmp.net/factcgt.html)

Note it does not have overload springs on the rear axle.

A real giveaway should be the cab. The Cab 11 and 12 Field Artillery Tractors had an integral body, quite different from the G.S. truck cab. If you post some pictures, we could possibly help a little more.

Regards,
Hanno
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  #3  
Old 05-03-03, 14:17
James E. Roy James E. Roy is offline
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Default F15A

Thanks Hanno! I checked out the oldcmp photos. I reckon my unit is an F15A. It certainly never had an integral body. I wondered if early Gun Tractors had an open body but, now that I think of it, 1940 is not that early. One of the websites that I visited, listed the F15 with 16" rims. The instuction book lists the F15A with 16" rims. The 20" rims are listed for F60S, F60H and the F-GT. A couple of the units that I saw with overload springs had reinforced frame rails too. There was another layer of steel plate factory-welded around the outside of the c-channels. These units are much heavier built than mine; they must have been used for heavy carting. As for photos, the forum wouldn't accept my bitmaps. I have to figure out how to generate a jpeg. I wonder what would have been the different roles for vehicles with 20" rims as opposed to 16" rims?
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Old 05-03-03, 14:32
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default Re: F15A

Quote:
Originally posted by James E. Roy
I wonder what would have been the different roles for vehicles with 20" rims as opposed to 16" rims?
James,

Your CMP seems indeed to be an F15A. But it could still be a heavily modified FAT. The integral body being discarded and replaced by a standard cab is not common, but it could have happened. Swapping 16" for 20" wheels is very common though, and these should not be used as an identification feature.

Still, I'd like to see pictures Microsoft Photo Editor (standard software with Windows 2000) will let you convert bitmaps into jpeg's very easily.

Hanno
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  #5  
Old 05-03-03, 17:16
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Pictures pleeeze....

Mornin' James

Would love to see the beast.... I have a particular interest having a 1940 C15a.... which I had been told by the previous owner that it was supposed to pull a small AA gun when he got i9t back in 1945.

Oddly mine has a full winch installed ... but according to official records no such thing was ever produced. It has a weird front cable guide centered on the front bumper and it should be offset to the passenger side.... and it has no helper springs.

I will know more once I remove the cargo box and see what the underneath and winch installation looks like. My truck was featured in Convoy last Fall.

Curious.....
Bob C.
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  #6  
Old 06-03-03, 14:21
James E. Roy James E. Roy is offline
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Default

These are the only photos I've taken. They are rather poor. This shows the vehicle as I bought it. The replacement headlights are rather nice but they'll have to go. Looking through the Instruction Book last night, I see that the VIN is stamped on the transmission case too. I'll check it out when the snow goes down.
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  #7  
Old 06-03-03, 16:11
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default Re: photos

Quote:
Originally posted by James E. Roy
These are the only photos I've taken. They are rather poor.
Hi James, indeed your pictures do not show the level of detail we'll need to determine if your CMP is a FAT or GS truck. I'd print the pictures found on http://www.oldcmp.net/factcgt.html and compare them in detail with your truck after the snow goes down.

A man called Ray posted pictures of his 1940 cab 11 on the CMP mailing list. I don't know if it still has a winch, but the picture below (source: CMP mailing list photo albums) clearly shows a cut-down FAT body. As you can see if is quite different from your truck's cab. Could the cab on your truck be home-built from the scuttle rearwards?

Regards,
Hanno
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  #8  
Old 07-03-03, 15:10
James E. Roy James E. Roy is offline
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Default F15A

Hi Hanno,

I'm sure that the cab on my truck is original. I have seen several similar models around here, in varying stages of decomposition, and they are identical.

There is a C8 in a junkyard nearby that is intact. It may be one of those prototype 1938s because it has no ventilation openings on either side of the rad.

In conclusion, my truck is an F15A. It's still a cool vehicle; it would just be a little cooler if one could call it a gun tractor. It's fun to drive, I can tell you.

It was in running condition when I bought it, although it isn't roadworthy. I have extensive fields and orchards around my house so I have had it out for a Sunday morning cruise many times last summer. It has no brakes so I keep it on the level. There was some rust on the roof skirt, the back cab panel and the doors so I'm restoring those. I've found a steel rear body (from that Chev) but I have yet to cajole from the owner. I hope to get at the brakes next summer. Other than that, I need a set of headlights, a seat and a few odds and ends and I'll be happy.

Anyway, Hanno (et al), thanks for your input. It's been fun talking with you. I intend to follow the forum closely, it's great.

Jim
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  #9  
Old 07-03-03, 18:01
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Thanks for the pictures

Hi James

You have got a good one there. With the chromed bumber and Chromed hub caps....hahaha

Will be looking for some updated pictures of the rear frame area.

Original NOS headlight buckets were for sale at Oshawa last August.... well known dealer who may be monitoring the MLU FORUM .... or other members may be able to help you.

Weather permitting you should keep track of the other wrecks in your neighbourhood's junk yards.... and even if you do not purchase some members would appreciate having the registration data recorded for future references. Nova Scotia is only 14 hours drive away.... not bad for good sheet metal or flat bed a complete truck back home.

How complete is the engine cover inside the cab??
...are there NO ID tags at all rivited or screwed on the side of that cover????

Lastly... in your informal orchard cruises did you try the 4X4..... and do you have a single or dual range transfer case??????

All those questions..... what else is there to do until that white stuff melts......

Keep us posted...

Bob C.
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  #10  
Old 07-03-03, 18:33
Phil Waterman Phil Waterman is offline
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Default I'm looking for head light buckets also

If there are NOS or even just reasonable condition headlight buckets and rims for Pattern 12 Chevy out there I will be needing a pair as well.
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Last edited by Phil Waterman; 08-03-03 at 01:18.
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  #11  
Old 07-03-03, 20:03
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David_Hayward (RIP) David_Hayward (RIP) is offline
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Default C8 dataplate?

Does the C8 have a dataplate please? I am interested in the serial and any other info if it exists. It sounds as though it is an early #11 Cab production truck, pre-mid August 1940 without the round ventilation holes.
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  #12  
Old 10-03-03, 12:58
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Default Re: F15A

Quote:
Originally posted by James E. Roy
In conclusion, my truck is an F15A. It's still a cool vehicle; it would just be a little cooler if one could call it a gun tractor. It's fun to drive, I can tell you.
Hi Jim, I agree on the F15A being a cool and fun to drive vehicle - I have one too

As for the cargo body, I doubt if the 8-cwt body of the C8 in that junkyard would fit your truck. Your F15A would probably have been fitted with a wooden Type 2A1 body - click here to see picture with all Canadian 15 cwt Basic G.S. Body Types (source). Mike Kelly's WW2 British 15 cwt body drawings do help to get an idea of the construction of such a wooden body. It might even prove easier to reconstruct one of these rather than restore that 8-cwt body.

Anyhow, keep us posted on your progress!
Hanno
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  #13  
Old 10-03-03, 15:14
James E. Roy James E. Roy is offline
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Default reply to Bob and Hanno

Sorry for the delay in responding.
Bob: That's a white Tremclad gobjob on the rims and bumpers...not chrome. My first mission was to lose the fire engine look and make it green. There were no plates on the door but there is a full set on the instrument panel. The transfer case shifting diagram indicates that the shift moves straight forward and back to engage/disengage the front axle. Yet I seem to have a winch brake too. When I looked at the transfer case shifting lever again, I see that it has a hole where a lift trigger would have been mounted. I'll have to wait until I get it started in the spring to see if there are other positions on the lever or if the linkage is just sloppy because I seem to have a low range position there. Another plate lists the piston firing order and engine capacities etc. Another warns you to only use 4 wheel drive when you need traction and the last advises you that proper lubrication is required.
I removed the inner motor cowling the other day to access the transmission to look for a serial number there. Of course its coated with 60 years of frozen grease and dirt. Do you have any idea where that serial number would be located on the transmission?
On the subject of headlights, I received an interesting accessory with the truck. Its a regular headlight bucket spring-mounted on a u-bracket as a back-up light. Apparently, it was mounted on the cab roof; although it wouldn't help much if you had a tarp mounted.
Hanno: The steel body from the Chev seems to be wide enough for my frame and the Chev has a 101" wheelbase so I'm hoping it'll be long enough. If need be, I could round up one of those tool boxes with the spare tire holder for behind the cab. Do you know when those tool boxes were introduced? Are they from the type 13?
I would much prefer a steel body, even if its not historically accurate. My original intention for the truck was to conserve it rather than restore it. Since I've had it for a while, I can see my attitude changing but for now I just want it to look like a truck.
I am going to start a new thread with some photos of The C8, if I can scope out how to get a bigger photo posted.
Again thanks to all.
Jim
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  #14  
Old 10-03-03, 17:49
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Lots of info in there.....

Hi James....

First of all the trans. #... I have read... meaning I have yet to do it myself.... the number you are looking for is supposed to be stampedm on the tranny where it joins to the bell housing... a similar number MAYBE stamped on the frame.. under the passenger side door... if it still readable.

Let us know what you find... I will be going trhough the same exersise when the snow melts.

The headlight may belong to a Bren Gun Carrier AKA Universal Carrier ... save it for future parts trading.

Yes you will need a tool box but the cab 11 had NO spare tire... I mean tyre carrier has they were equipped with run flat tyres. I am not sure if the Cab 13 tool box is identical or reasonably similar to the cab elevn tool box.

The junk yard cargo box is not meant for your truck... but for the smaller C8...although it might fit and look nice. You might consider salvaging for future sell/trade and look for a proper second series GS metal box. A wooden box might be eassier to build but you would need a garage to store the vehicle

I intend to remove my badly rusted metal box and use it as a pattern for fabricating my own replica......hoping to find some drawings at the Canadian War Museum or measure the models on display..... will document my efforts for others to read and see.

Right now I can't even tell which of the different door handles, inside and out, is accurate.

Aaah Spring.... the smell of musty old cars and stale hardened oil drippings warming up in the Sun..........
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  #15  
Old 10-03-03, 17:57
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Rims and headlights......Phil W.

Hi Phil

What size rims for your Cab 12.... 16 or 20 inches.

Might be worthwhile starting a new thread on these parts..... wondering who else as a cab 12 in North America.

Some one on the Forum should be able to ID that seller from Oshawa .... he seemed a very knowledgeable individual.... Don dingwall bougth parts from him... he may remember his name.

Hang in there
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  #16  
Old 10-03-03, 21:42
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Default Re: FAT's

Hanno, your reply Convoy jan, 20, 2003 :

Difference between Cab 11/12 and 13?
by Hanno Spoelstra (no login)

Dirk,

That's were I've always seen the battery box on FATs.

See this pic: (Photo factory book Brian Gough)
http://home-3.worldonline.nl/~dlgwtr/Fotos/Brian1.jpg



But Hanno where is the battery box ? (Photo factory book Brian Gough).
I like mistery question's , maybe difference between cab 11 / 12 ?


Mvg. Dirk
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  #17  
Old 12-03-03, 13:43
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Talking cab 11

Imagine my suprise.here I am perusing your site and low-and-behold I see my truck post. I am Ray and that is my cab 11 gun tractor, well whats left of it. as you can see it needs alot of work. If anyone has or knows where I can get body plans, it would make my life alot easier. She has 20" wheels, a 101" wheelbase chev straight 6, 2 speed transfercase and a winch in the frame. Not much of the interior is ther but right now I am concentrating on the body. Oh did I mention I have a spare winch. The story how I got her is interesting also but don't have time to tell it now. Ray.
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  #18  
Old 14-03-03, 20:12
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Default FAT

A nice page of the famous "Design Record" volume V

Mvg. Dirk

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  #19  
Old 23-03-03, 14:12
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Barry Churcher Barry Churcher is offline
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Default FAT?

Dirk and Hanno- The photo from Brian Gough's collection has always puzzled me. Is that really a gun tractor? Notice the cab 11/12 floor. I have never seen a FAT with a regular cab floor. I have torched ( oops, I forgot thats a bad word ) many FATs looking for the ellusive straight frame rails and never seen one like this. Maybe since Brian's book shows many early models this is just a made up chassis with the reguar cab floor so as to have someplace to install a seat. All of the FATs I have ever seen have had the battery box on the frame. The 13 cabs moved it to the inside. I will ask Brian to borrow his book next week and have another perusal.
Ray (cab11ca)- I am in southern Ontario (near Brighton) if that helps you to get some measurments. I have a Gotfredson 11/12 cab Fat body that you are welcome to crawl around and get what you need.
Met vriendelijke groeten Barry
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  #20  
Old 23-03-03, 14:43
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Marc Montgomery Marc Montgomery is offline
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Thumbs up Headlight pots James

HI James
The cab11-12 style headlights pots mentioned by Bob C (Convoy member) belong to another Convoy member who is very seldom on line. Contact me off list and I'll see if we can put you in touch with each other
Cheers
Marc
http://www.geocities.com/convoymagazine
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  #21  
Old 23-03-03, 15:18
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Default Re: FAT?

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry C
Dirk and Hanno- The photo from Brian Gough's collection has always puzzled me. Is that really a gun tractor? Notice the cab 11/12 floor. I have never seen a FAT with a regular cab floor. I have torched ( oops, I forgot thats a bad word ) many FATs looking for the ellusive straight frame rails and never seen one like this. Maybe since Brian's book shows many early models this is just a made up chassis with the reguar cab floor so as to have someplace to install a seat. All of the FATs I have ever seen have had the battery box on the frame. The 13 cabs moved it to the inside. I will ask Brian to borrow his book next week and have another perusal.
Ray (cab11ca)- I am in southern Ontario (near Brighton) if that helps you to get some measurments. I have a Gotfredson 11/12 cab Fat body that you are welcome to crawl around and get what you need.
Met vriendelijke groeten Barry




Thanks Barry,

Steven has also told me the story of the "Battery Box" location of
the early FAT's, you was a very good teacher for him last year ?
Yes I "must" believe you both !!!!

Ook van mijn kant een vriendelijke groet,

Dirk
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  #22  
Old 23-03-03, 22:05
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Default Aust FGT battery box location

Australian Cab 13 based FATs, (#8 and #9) had the battery box located just behind the transfer case lever in the centre of the cab.


I've just put this page up including a lot of miscellaneous FGT images from the past 30 or so years...

http://www.oldcmp.net/fgt_misc.html
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  #23  
Old 17-04-03, 23:41
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default FAT chassis details

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry C
Dirk and Hanno- The photo from Brian Gough's collection has always puzzled me. Is that really a gun tractor? Notice the cab 11/12 floor. I have never seen a FAT with a regular cab floor. I have torched ( oops, I forgot thats a bad word ) many FATs looking for the ellusive straight frame rails and never seen one like this.
Barry,

Since you have been up close and personal with so many gun tractor chassis, I hope you have learned enough from gas-axing them to help with this: Rolf and I were discussing a CGT chassis he has. The spring shackles and winch cross member are bolted to the frame, rather than riveted. Could this have been the result of a rebuild? His CGT has double chassis rails, but with no data plates remaining, how can one determine if this is not a shortened 3-ton chassis?

Ook met vriendelijke groeten,
Hanno

P.S.: pic of Barry "caught in the act"

source: http://www.oldcmp.net/photocompaction2.html
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  #24  
Old 27-04-03, 21:17
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Barry Churcher Barry Churcher is offline
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Default

Best Hanno
Hoe gaat het met jullie, hopelijk prima.
I have never seen a truck that has factory bolts on the frame or crossmembers. I suspect this is a shortened frame. You see the odd truck with one spring perch or something that is bolted in and that is usually the sign of a repair, either military or civilian.
Rivets were cheaper, faster and stronger. The frames were built in jigs and had to be right on. Bolting lead to rejects from human error. Ik kijk er echt naar uite je weer te zien.
Groeten Barry
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