CMP Production End?

JD Baillie · #1 29-11-03, 03:38

Greetings all,
Anyone know when CMPs went out of production, when Canada purchased the Dodge M series to replace them and when the CMPs were retired from active service... oh and just in case I didn't ask enough questions here... did any Canadian Army CMPs see Korea?

Cheers
JD

Brian Gough · #2 29-11-03, 04:14

Hi JD

The latest production date that I have seen for a CMP Chev is August 31, 1945 when this HUP 1C11 was built. It is now in the Canadian War Museum collection.

http://www.civilization.ca/tresors/treasure/281eng.html

I believe CMP FATs were used in Korea. I am sure someone will come up with a picture for you.

Brian

Gordon Yeo · #3 29-11-03, 04:32

In 1995 when the parade was forming up in Appeldoorn I walked through some of the trucks and talked to some of the owners.Europe is such a marvelous place isn't it most people understand English.There was a 60 CWT chev with 1946 date of production and that came as a huge suprise.So did CMP production for Canadian use end and continue for export to Europe?I thought contacts ended in1945.

Don Dingwall · #4 29-11-03, 04:47

Yup quite a few.
Mostly specialised types like Lindsay bodied 4x4 3 tonners, medical, dental, office etc, by the look of them.

I haven't seen any photos of FATs in Korea, but there are plenty showing the short wheelbase 6x6 GMC CCKW 352 (?) for the RCHA batteries and their 25 pounders.

HTH
Don

JD Baillie · #5 29-11-03, 09:04

Don,
I'll hang out my ignorance but what is a FAT?

Cheers
JD

Richard Farrant · #6 29-11-03, 13:38

Quote:

Originally posted by JD Baillie
what is a FAT?

JD

It is a Field Artillery Tractor, usually towing a 25 pounder field gun and limber.

Richard

David_Hayward (RIP) · #7 29-11-03, 14:24

This is from my forthcoming book:

"In 1944, the tide of war changed, and the requirements for new military vehicles declined, as was shown in the assembly figures. G.M. in the U.S., Canada and Australia started to consider their post-war models, which by necessity would have to be based on the 1942 Models. However, both Ford and G.M. of Canada produced 1945 Model M.C.P. [MODIFIED CONVENTIONAL or CIVILIAN PATTERN] trucks until production ended in December 1945 of Chevrolets/Maple Leafs and G.M.C.s, re-starting April 1946 with the 1946 Models, and in the case of Ford, until the strike in Windsor Plant started September 12 1945. A letter dated 11 September 1945 from the Minister of Munitions and Supply to General Motors of Canada states that wartime production would be ending in a few days thereafter: this seems to suggest that C.M.P. production as well as MCP production ended by 20 September, say 30 September at the latest, in Oshawa Plant.

The last C.M.P. models were plated as ‘1944 Models’, prefixed ‘4’on the build plate in front of the model year of Chevrolet trucks. However, assembly of trucks continued nevertheless after hostilities ended, especially in Europe just in time to be pressed into service for humanitarian as well as military purposes. There is no evidence that there were any ‘1945’ Model Chevrolet C.M.P. vehicles: the latest known build date stamped on a build plate was 30 August 1945: 1C11 Staff Car # 4844521386 ENGINE # FR4,057,573 to British order S/M 6407 though there were later contracts: the last one known was S/M 6524 again for Staff Cars. There were also 1944 Model Fords assembled into what was really 1946 Model Year: Ford Model C291Q, Serial Number CK-236140, Engine # 5G-420-F to [BRITISH CONTRACT] S/M 6389 was built in November 1945. The highest known Ford contract was for F.60L units to Contract S/M 6537, e.g. Ford F60L/WP built to contract SM-6537 on 4 September 1945 which has serial number SU-301065 and engine number 5G-11449F

However there were 1945 Model Chevrolet and GMC, and no doubt Ford, civilian pattern trucks produced, and some of these were exported to the U.K.: one Chevrolet was then sent back to Canada on repatriation post-war".

How was a Ford built in Windsor despite the strike? Perhaps the military line was unaffected or the date was in fact when the truck was assembled overseas as a kit of parts?

Barry Churcher · #8 29-11-03, 18:08

Somewhere I have a book about the Korean War
and in it there are photos of FAT's towing two limbers.
I believe they were being used by the Kiwis.
Barry C.

Max Hedges · #9 29-11-03, 21:36

I'm staying with Max at the moment and here's a link to my page with a couple of pics of Korean FATs.

Hanno Spoelstra · #10 29-11-03, 22:25

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
There were also 1944 Model Fords assembled into what was really 1946 Model Year: F15A Engine # 5G-420-F to [BRITISH CONTRACT] S/M 6389 was built in November 1945.

David, that truck is not an F15A. Its chassis type is C291Q.L-W., which means it really is a FAT, albeit fitted with a 15-cwt body. As for what type of role this truck was actually built for, that is still a mystery. Read more at Ford's 1945 C291Q model - the "F22"?.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #11 29-11-03, 23:59

Thank you Hanno..I have in fact read the text several times. On checking my draft I see that I have, elsewhere in the draft, got the information down correctly. I have amended my previous posting to suit. Thanks once again for spotting what I had not.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #12 30-11-03, 00:15

I was midsleading

The last known British-placed Ford contract was S/M 6556, although because we know the census numbers the deliveries were possibly made by the end of 1944:

Z 6258438 to Z 6258937 SM 6556 Truck 15 cwt 4x4 GS C291WQ

The last Chevrolet British-order contract numerically was SM 6524 "CAR 8 CWT. 4 X 4 HEAVY UTILITY"

However you cannot rely on contract numbers to establish assembly dates...another HUP has just been found and I have its data from Marc from Convoy:

M 6230395 to M 6230594 SM 6407 "CAR 4 X 4 HEAVY UTILITY 1C11 STAFF CAR". Now we know that Serial # 4844521376 and # 4844521386 were built 31 August 1945 but # 4844516970 was built months before to the same contract on 5 January 1945!

There is a photo of M 6230400 in the Imperial War Museum, photo # KID 6407.

The newly-discovered rough wreck has the following information:

Vehicle Model C8A-PERS-2 note not PERS-3.

GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA LTD
CHASSIS MODEL C8A
CAB MODEL 13
CHASSIS SERIAL 4844516970
ORDER NO SM 6407
ENGINE SERIAL FR4014628
DATE OF MFG JAN.5/45

PUBLICATIONS APPLYING TO THIS VEHICLE
DRIVER'S HANDBOOK C8A-HB1
MAINTENANCE MANUAL MB-C2
SPARE PARTS LIST C8A-03

JD Baillie · #13 01-12-03, 08:17

Thanks everybody for the great replies. As the construction of the M38 was heavier (I have read) than the MB, was it found to be the case where the CMP was a little lightly built for the variety of roles it performed?

Cheers
JD

Don Dingwall · #14 01-12-03, 17:07

Apparently you haven't worked on one lately! :-)

Actually, as early as 1943 it was pretty much decided that producing a bastardised Brit-Canadian design was a waste of effort, when US sourced vehicles had far more commonality to Canadian production, and it was realised that we probably should have been following a "North American" course of vehicle production. Too late to change over by the time the realisation hit. That said, CMP's continued in service to the mid to late 1960's in specialist roles, such as HUW, HU ZL, Chev15 cwt GS, 15 cwt water tanker, battery charger, KL welder, Chev C15A Wire3 and 5, derrick, 3 ton line maintenance, Ford and Chev 3 ton GS, Chev 3 ton wireless, and at least 8 types of machinery lorry, both 4 and 6 wheeled.

As far as Canada in Korea goes, the same theme continued-it was decided that we should strive for commonality within the framework of the UN armies in Korea being supplied with the gretare mass of their equipoment being of US origin. Therefore, you see lots of CCKW 352's, M3 series half tracks, and later on, M38 jeeps, and M211 series 2 1/2 tonners being used, not to mention the switch from Achilles to Shermans, although this was for tactical reasons. The same process was taking place at home during this period, with the 2 1/2 tonners coming into service, alongside the CMP's left over from the war. After Korea the M37 series started showing up.

This was in no way a reflection on the build quality of CMP's--anyone who owns one can testify to that--but spoke more to the desire to have a North American vehicle family in service that could be maintained and produced in a much more efficient manner.....not to mention that NA vehicles had the steering wheel on the correct side! (80% of vehicle losses in 39-45 overseas in the Cdn. Army were due to accidents, many attributed to right hand drive.)

HTH
Don

JD Baillie · #15 01-12-03, 22:06

Don,
Thanks for that! I have never worked on or driven a CMP. Have seen them first hand in a small museum here in Victoria. I learned how to drive on the M37s M211s and M38AIs and have done the usual field fixes on those and others.
If the specialist CMPs were in service that long, they would have been well used but well maintained long after the others had been sold out. Wonder where they have all ended up? I would think a specialist truck would have continued in its role in the civi world.
I did have a Sgt who said that the CMPs out performed the M37s in field conditions. Interesting that today the overwhelming design of military trucks tends towards a cabover instead of the great hood out front. You would think that just SOMEWHERE we could learn a bit from history.

Thanks again.

JD