Mystery British WDS trucks

David_Hayward (RIP) · #1 25-02-05, 13:56

Can anyone please id for me please?

1. 1936 War Department Trials, North Wales

http://www.photoarchives.co.uk/pixcma/04186.jpg

[Leyland 6 x 4 .... Cub?]

and AEC Marshall but in the background a Thorneycroft 6 x 4 with diesel engine...which model?

http://www.photoarchives.co.uk/pixcma/04185.jpg

and
2. 1938?

Albions?

http://www.photoarchives.co.uk/pixcma/armytrials01.jpg
http://www.photoarchives.co.uk/pixcma/armytrials02.jpg

and 4 x 4 ...what?
http://www.photoarchives.co.uk/pixcma/armytrials05.jpg

Phil Waterman · #2 25-02-05, 16:03

If I remember correctly there was some mention of these tests in one of Bart Vanderveen's books. I can't lay my hands on it at this moment not in the bookcase by the computer.

Pete Ashby · #3 25-02-05, 19:45

David

the diesel engined Thornycroft may be the pre production WOF/DC4 fitted with a four cylinder 60 bhp CI engine.

I'll have a look at the others a post a few more suggestions

Pete

Pete Ashby · #4 25-02-05, 20:26

David

This is an interesting one, I would tend towards the truck being a Terrier, forerunner to the Retriever; however the hard cab and civi wings are throwing me, as the production Terrier was open cab without screen.

The three axel version of the Cub came out in 1931 so it is possible, as an outsider it may be a Hippo MK1, but the body does not seem long enough.
I think on balance it's a Terrier

Pete

David_Hayward (RIP) · #5 25-02-05, 20:32

The rego is DMC 987 which would appear to be a 1936 one. If it was taken on, as it appears to have been, then it couod have been L 377599 to Contract V3096, 'Lorry 3 ton 6 x 4 G/S'.

What would the 6 x 4 Guy of similar vintage have been> FBAX?

Pete Ashby · #6 25-02-05, 20:33

The first picture is a BY1 with the 4cyl 63.5 bhp petrol engine

Pete

Pete Ashby · #7 25-02-05, 20:41

David

Looking closely at the front scuttle it seems to be high above the radiator top, this was a characteristic of the Guy, they had very distinctive rims and hubs as well. Do you have another picture of the same truck?

The FBAX was fitted with own make 4cyl 76 bhp petrol

Pete

David_Hayward (RIP) · #8 25-02-05, 20:53

http://www.photoarchives.co.uk/pixcma/04190.jpg

This is a 1936 Trials Guy

Which was the Albion BY1 please; the first # 11? The 1936 Trials write-up mentions Leyland Cub....does that make sense now? Also the WD trialled a Morris-Commercial Leader..another new one on me!! I believe that this was the Model C2. Incidentally the Canadian DND papers show that they were 'familiar' by 1937 with the Cub chassis..supplied by Leyland Motors Ltd in Toronto presumably.

Pete Ashby · #9 25-02-05, 21:03

David

I'm going to open the bidding on this one as a Crossley
FWD type 1

Pete

David_Hayward (RIP) · #10 25-02-05, 21:09

"From the mid 1930's re-armament of the British forces started and Crossley again became heavily involved with its previous customer the Royal Air Force. As the number of RAF squadrons grew so did the need for ground transport and this was at first satisfied by the IGL3 petrol engined truck with over 700 being supplied. In 1935 a new War Office specification was issued for a medium 3 ton 4 x 4 truck that was to replace the 6 x 4 IGL type and in 1938 an order for a prototype was placed. This vehicle was of an advanced design with independent suspension, the new 38/110 bus engine and a 5 speed gearbox. It performed well but in the end because of pressures to get production underway and ease of repair the War Office requested a simpler vehicle. The final design, known as the FWD or Four Wheel Drive, had an 11 foot wheelbase and used a conventional suspension, the drive train of the 2 axle IGL and the proven 30/70 engine. The name often used for these, the Quad or "Q" type, is not strictly correct as "Q" was the specification title used by the War Office and so could be applied to vehicles from several manufacturers of differing designs.

Just after the outbreak of war in 1939 production of the FWD started in earnest with initial orders for 506 trucks and 228 crash tenders, and a further 700 vehicles after the British Expeditionary Force lost most of its equipment in the 1940 retreat to Dunkirk. First deliveries were in July 1940 and nearly 800 were delivered by the end of the year along with 340 IGL's. In 1943 a tractor variant entered production and a more powerful 96bhp (later 100bhp) engine, the 30/100, available as an option. Three variants in all were produced known as Types 1, 2 and 3 with differences in transmissions and engines".

A photo of a RAF FWD I found, late-war. looks rather like the trials truck! Another mystery solved?

Richard Farrant · #11 25-02-05, 21:57

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Also the WD trialled a Morris-Commercial Leader..another new one on me!!

David,

The Morris Commercial Leader was quite a well known truck in the commercial world, in 3, 3.5 and 4 ton payloads and normal control cab. I will try and find a picture of one.

Richard

Pete Ashby · #12 25-02-05, 23:11

David

I think the BY1 is your trials picture No01 (#11)

Pete

Pete Ashby · #13 25-02-05, 23:23

David

your trails picture 02 (#12) I think is a Thornycroft Tatar WOF/AC4/1

4 cyl petrol @ 77 bhp

that was good fun, I'm now surrounded by a veritable heap of reference books, manuals and magazines, I'm off now to put them all back before I can go to bed.

Regards

Pete

Pete Ashby · #14 25-02-05, 23:28

One last point before I go,

The Cub issue is interesting, as far as I am aware the WD did not take up the Cub, but did use the Terrier,

I wonder if the Terrier was the War Dept version of the Cub. The Terrier was replaced by the Retriever as we know.

Richard can you shed any light ??

Pete

Bill Murray · #15 25-02-05, 23:29

Evening David:

This is a little ourt of my area but I will give it a "half try".

Vehicle # 7 I would call a Leyland Terrier
Vehicle #8 AEC Marshal
Vehicle # 11 Albion BY1
Vehicle # 12 Thorneycroft LE
Vehicle 4X4 Crossley FWD

The only seeming disagreement is on vehicle # 12 and I am basing my ID on the unique rounded radiator shell that was typical of Thorneycroft in the period as opposed to the square and rectangular or half rounded radiator shells found on other contemporary trucks.
BTW, did you get those data sheets I emailed to you and were they of any use or did you already have them?

Cheers
Bill

David_Hayward (RIP) · #16 26-02-05, 00:11

Yes, I have got the data already but not in jpg form that I can send out to people thanks. Please always send out anything that anybody might think I might need, as it is always useful.

The Leyland mystery deepens! COMMERCIAL MOTOR 25 September 1936 that reported on the WD Trials referred to the Leyland as being a Cub. The DND were also considering buying the Cub as well at the time. They had a Terrier of circa 1930/1 vintage and in late 1936 wanted the Toronto subsidiary to build the Cub under licence to provide the 6-wheel FAT that was required.

Would the Morris-Commercial on trial have been a CD or CD/SW [it was a FAT version]?

This is the 1936 Diesel Thorneycroft again [WOF/DC4?]
http://www.photoarchives.co.uk/pixcma/04178.jpg

Is the 1936 Guy a FBAX or earlier please? yes it is!!
http://www.photoarchives.co.uk/pixcma/04190.jpg

As regards MCC, for the 1938 Trials they presented a 15-cwt [CS8?] 4-wheeler with Saurer diesel engine. GM presented Chevrolet, GMC and even an Opel truck!

Richard Farrant · #17 26-02-05, 01:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
I wonder if the Terrier was the War Dept version of the Cub. The Terrier was replaced by the Retriever as we know.

Richard can you shed any light ??

Pete,

You may be right, I cannot find anything on this one.

Regarding the 4x4 truck, I am having a stab at it being a Hardy, my reason being the wheel hubs strongly resemble those on the AEC/FWD R6T.

Richard

Richard Farrant · #18 26-02-05, 17:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
The Cub issue is interesting, as far as I am aware the WD did not take up the Cub, but did use the Terrier,

I wonder if the Terrier was the War Dept version of the Cub. The Terrier was replaced by the Retriever as we know.

Richard can you shed any light ??

Pete,

Had another look at the first pic, the Leyland and am sure this is a standard civilian model with cross country tyres. Probably a feasabilty test. Looking at the rear mudguards, not a typical WD type, too close fitting, dropside body and cab. I don't think it can be a military model.

Richard

Pete Ashby · #19 26-02-05, 20:49

Richard

in that case I'll vote for a 6x4 3 ton Cub on trial

Pete

Pete Ashby · #20 26-02-05, 20:52

Got me there Richard

not seen or heard of one of those, did the WO take on a contract ?

Pete

Richard Farrant · #21 26-02-05, 21:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
Got me there Richard

not seen or heard of one of those, did the WO take on a contract ?

Pete

Pete,

The origins of the AEC Matador lie with its connections with the company that built FWD trucks during WW1. In the late 1920's they were using AEC parts for the trucks and eventually became linked. The AEC / FWD R6T I mentioned was a 6x6 and if you look in Bart's prewar directory you will see the rather unique wheel hubs look the same. Hardy submitted a 4x4 for the WD trials and I am quessing this may be it. As you ask, did the WO take it up, well, I suppose they did in a later form as the Matador and what a successful vehicle it was, earning its keep right through to the 70's at least.

Richard

David_Hayward (RIP) · #22 27-02-05, 11:38

I am going to check the '38 WD Trials Report that I am awaiting from the Tank Museum to see if there was a Hardy etc. Thanks for the lesson!

David_Hayward (RIP) · #23 02-03-05, 15:26

1. The 1936 Trials Leylands were:

a) Leyland Bull Terrier
b) Leyland Retriever [64 having been purchased for workshop lorries]
c) Leyland Cub Demonstrator which was an experimental chassis developed by Leylands to reduce the costs in comparison with the Retriever, with special type of 4-wheeled rear bogie. In 1936 NZ purchased one. This photo appears to fit the bill, as it also has the double-wings over the rear wheels precluding the fitment of chains.

http://www.photoarchives.co.uk/pixcma/04186.jpg

2. The 1938 WD Trials 3-ton 4 x 4s were:

a) Guy Lizard
b) Karrier Spider
c) AEC experimental with Forward Control [COE] and was being fitted with a winch, suitable as a lorry or FAT
d) Crossley experimental
e) Albion E.V.I.N.

The Trials reports for 1936, 1937, 1938 and 1939-40 are fascinating and also show that Marmon-Herrington conversions were tied out starting with Unipowers' Fordson conversion and ending with the 'father of the F60H', and also Garner-Straussler built with Ford components and M-H front wheel drive.

The predecessor of the F60H was a Fordson with a Sussex [dual-wheeled] rear bogie conversion with M-H front drive to produce a 6 x 6 that predated or possibly was contemporary with, the Candian Ford chassis with M-H front-drive and M-H and Thornton rear-drive.

Anyhow, M-H fans that have not seen the Reports will no doubt be interested in the conversions offered in the UK pre-war.

Pete Ashby · #24 02-03-05, 21:07

There you go then David,
between the four of us we did OK on that, got any more brain teasers?

Pete

Richard Farrant · #25 02-03-05, 21:45

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
2. The 1938 WD Trials 3-ton 4 x 4s were:

a) Guy Lizard
b) Karrier Spider
c) AEC experimental with Forward Control [COE] and was being fitted with a winch, suitable as a lorry or FAT
d) Crossley experimental
e) Albion E.V.I.N.

David,

The AEC fits with Hardy, because in Bart's prewar bible, he shows the Karrier on the WD Trial in Oct. 1938 and says that similar types entered by Albion, Crossley, Guy and Hardy (AEC).

Richard

David_Hayward (RIP) · #26 02-03-05, 22:33

Can anyone fill me in please on the Hardy company? Would this experiemental truck have become the Matador? The only possible candidate from the Census List under AEC is L 394951 to Contract V.3278, 'Lorry 3 ton 4 x 4'. This would date to spring 1938.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #27 02-03-05, 22:44

http://www.photoarchives.co.uk/pixcma/04185.jpg
[in the background, not the AEC Marshall as has just been pointed out]
http://www.photoarchives.co.uk/pixcma/04178.jpg

This is apparently a Model L.E./D.C.4 experimental .

Richard Farrant · #28 02-03-05, 22:56

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
http://www.photoarchives.co.uk/pixcma/04185.jpg

David,

This one would be the AEC Marshall, I reckon.

Richard

David_Hayward (RIP) · #29 02-03-05, 22:56

This
http://www.photoarchives.co.uk/pixcma/armytrials02.jpg
is listed I believe as has been said as 'type WO/AC4'.

Well done Pete! And thanks.

Richard Farrant · #30 02-03-05, 23:04

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Can anyone fill me in please on the Hardy company? Would this experiemental truck have become the Matador? The only possible candidate from the Census List under AEC is L 394951 to Contract V.3278, 'Lorry 3 ton 4 x 4'. This would date to spring 1938.

David,

This all starts back to the Four Wheel Drive Co. in Slough, I think. I'm taking all this from memory, they built trucks after WW1 and started to substitute AEC components. Hardy Rail Cars were involved along the line, also using AEC parts. The FWD R6T 6x6 gun tractor that I mentioned in an earlier message had hubs like this truck, it later became the AEC R6T and the Matador was a development from FWD designs. It is all on the net somewhere, but that is the rough outline.

Richard