CMP fluids question ..........

[BCBlitz]

HI All

Well Im currious if any of you can chime in on the fluids issue for my F15A flathead V8 I dont have the manual yet so currious as to what to use in all the areas on the truck.

engine oil ? ........ 30WT detergent ? or NON detergent ? or a more modern multigrade like 10/30 ? the engine is a early 50's Mercury flathead not the OEM engine Im told.

gear oil for trans, axles and transfer case .... reg 80/90 gear oil ?

brake fluid ........ reg DOT 3 or do we have to use silicone brake fluid like the USA trucks ?, something to do with attacking rubber, any thoughts ?, Ill be bleeding the whole system so if silicon is better that would be the time to change over.

any other help would be great as as soon as the weather warms up and the snow melts Ill be looking at getting it all changed .

Thanks all have a OD / Khaki kind of day

[sapper740]

Originally Posted by BCBlitz

HI All

Well Im currious if any of you can chime in on the fluids issue for my F15A flathead V8 I dont have the manual yet so currious as to what to use in all the areas on the truck.

Here's a scan from my Ford manual for "Special Pattern vehicles" showing all the service lubricants, both DND specification number and civilian equivalent. If you want to send me your email address, I can send you a much higher resolution pic. Hope this info helps, Derek.

[Bob Carriere]

HI Terry

If you are looking for reproductions of the various Ford manuals contact Grant Bowker on MLU he now has the full collection of manuals from Alex Blair.

Sounds like you will be getting down and dirty soon.....

BooBee

[Gunner]

Hi Terry:

I have silicone in the brake system of both my 43 F60S Light Anti Aircraft Tractor (LAAT) and my 41 GMC CCKW and am very happy with them. Unlike several other trucks in the collection they never need bleeding. Many other of our beasts need bleeding every few months and one is a downright fluid hog who needs a bleed every month. When it is rebuilt shortly, its getting silicone!

There are, however, many traps and pitfalls in switching over. I strongly recommend you do a search on this and other forums to get an idea of whats involved... basically you will be replacing most of the rubber parts of the system before you add the silicone.

Rob Love, who posts here frequently, is a very talented ex-military mechanic and enthusiast. He has vast experience with silicone brake fluid and can set you in the right direction.

Good luck! Mike

[cantankrs]

I'm interested in where this silicone info is going - perhaps it should have its own thread in the restoration forum? A couple of years ago I enquired with a local, very experienced brake man, about whether I should bite the bullet and switch a light crane I have over to silicone brake fluid while I was overhauling the brake system and he flat out said don't touch the stuff. He wouldn't elaborate and seemed to have no love for it. I don't think he was trying to con me in any way. I just don't know whether he was warning me off due to cost, or some other reasons. Prior to that everything I'd heard said it was the go for restored vehicles.

Regards

Alex

[Phil Waterman]

Alex- your point is well taken, this topic does deserve detail treatment and it has been discussed in the past below are some of the threads. Unfortunately the MLU search feature works fine and other times it gets finicky. Today for example I typed in silicone brake fluid and got a number of responses, and then I typed in just silicone and got more. Yesterday I tried the same searches and got nothing. So if you get no hits on a search try again later.

Now back to silicone brake fluid here are some of the threads:
http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...ne+brake+fluid
http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...ne+brake+fluid
http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...ne+brake+fluid
http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...ne+brake+fluid

Several good points have been made in the past:

The first silicone brake fluids that came out had real problems and many providers/manufactures of master cylinders, brake cylinders, sleeving would not warranty there products if silicone was used.

If you are completely redoing a brake system (replacing or rebuilding all the parts) going over to modern silicone brake fluid should not be a problem and probably will give the advantages of silicone. But DO NOT use any NOS rubber parts, lines, cups or boots there maybe a compatibility problem. Be sure to use all new stock rubber parts from a known major brand. (This is probably a good idea know matter what fluid you use.)

The last point that has been made in the past discussions is that to change over, you really need to be sure that you get all of the old fluid and more importantly the dirt out of the system.

Personally - I think that one of the major maintenance problems with CMP brakes is us the users. We have all been spoiled by self adjusting brakes. Because the shoes/pads automatically adjust on our modern trucks and cars they have bigger brake fluid reservoirs because they are checked so infrequently. CMPs with there manual adjusting brakes need to be adjusted by the book. When properly adjusted the master cylinder is only moving a small amount to apply the brakes, which means there is very little air being drawn in and out through the vent on the filler cap thus less moisture is drawn into the system. When properly adjusted the brake shoes on a CMP do not have to move very much to fully apply. (This assumes that the drums are not oval shaped and shoes are not worn out)

Over the years I have been impressed with the braking power on HUP and on the C60, the HUP had has no booster while my C60S and C60L both have brake boosters. Compared to some of the US military trucks I've driven CMPs have bloody great brakes. (This however could be a maintenance issue) But when you look at the brakes on a 3/4 Dodge and compare it to a HUP you sort of wonder what was Dodge thinking.

One finial point – Alex I’m willing to bet that your friendly brake experts feelings about silicon brake fluid was centered around the rubber parts compatibility issue and the differences in tolerances between modern systems designed for silicon and those systems designed for regular DOT 3. Which is a very good point to consider.

[Neil Ashley]

I have been in the REME TA for 17 years and one of the most common jobs I do when working in workshops is replacing the Master Cylinders on trailers which have seized up due to lack of use. This is despite changing the brake fluid on a regular basis.

Silicone Brakle Fluid in an application like this could save thousands of pounds a year.

[Bob Carriere]

Just to echo Phil's point........

Last weekend, just a spur of the moment thing...... we decided to see if I still had brake pressure on my C15a which slept in a canvas tent all Winter.

Now my experience with M 37, M43 and PW was that the pedal would drop to the floor and a total bleed job would be needed...... that happens every year on my Dodges...... low and behold.... after two pumps, by hand, we had full pressure.
Sat on the beast and puched hard to see if it would bleed down.... held real thight......

So we pushed our luck a little further and tested to see if the battery still had life..... shit the engine started no problems at all......

Now when I rebuilt my C15a I installed new wheel cylinders, new steel and rubber lines and a rebuilt SS sleeved master, done by John Stuart of Stoney Creek, Ont. I hesitated like most to convert to silicone..... read all the pros and cons of the new fluid...got totally confused with the controversy...... some early experience were very negative..... it is important to note that most high end Ford cars (Lincoln and Jags)and trucks have switched to the modern silicone fluid......

For good dependable brakes do not hesitate to get new linings and get the drums turned clean..... and while at it..get them to "arc" grind your new linings to sit properly in the arc of the drums.....

If I had a chance to redo the full system of a Dodge, I would switch to synthetic silicone fluids. There are limits as to the improvement of the sick design of the flexible flower pot brake drums of the M37 as the stretch oval when braking hard..... it is a design limitation.

I would not consider using old, seemingly good, brake lines and would not try to flush them clean but rebuild the whole brake setup...... expensive.. Yes..... but so stopping a CMP on the rear end of a Honda.

Phil's expereince with the CMP is based on driving his trucks in the hills of Vermont and New Hamshire at a comfortable 50 mph... so when he says he can stop... he is not talking parade speed....!!!!

BooBee

[cletrac (RIP)]

Going back to Terry's original question, I'd just use 80-90 multiviscocity gear oil in all the gear cases. There aren't any benefits to the heavier stuff unless your seals leak too much.
As for brake fluid' I'll stick with the old regular stuff. I've driven millions of miles on it with no problems so I can't see any reason to change now.
For engine oil it's hard to beat straight 30 weight in the summer and something like 5-30 for cold weather. Synthetics in these old powerplants would likely overstress the seals and British Columbia authorities don't like dripping motors, do they?

[cantankrs]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Alex I’m willing to bet that your friendly brake experts feelings about silicon brake fluid was centered around the rubber parts compatibility issue and the differences in tolerances between modern systems designed for silicon and those systems designed for regular DOT 3. Which is a very good point to consider.

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

I would not consider using old, seemingly good, brake lines and would not try to flush them clean but rebuild the whole brake setup...... expensive.. Yes..... but so stopping a CMP on the rear end of a Honda.

Hi Phil and Bob, and Neil,

So the brake man was probably thinking just that, that at the end of the day Safety and not using other objects (or people) to stop against is paramount.
Thanks for all your info - much appreciated.

Regards

Alex

[Barry Churcher]

I would agree with Cletrac. I have never had good luck with silicone fluid and DOT 3 when used properly will give better brakes. 80/90 gear oil preferably GL-1 as opposed to the more readily available GL-5 will work for the trans, transfer and diffs. GL-1 is not hard on yellow metal as is the GL-5. You don't need the EP additives of gear oil in the trans so you could use a good quality 50 weight detergent oil. HD 50 is the same viscosity as 90 gear oil. The best engine oil is one of the high mileage oils (Valvoline is one). Newer motor oils have less zinc and the zinc is important for flat tappet engines. Like lead in the gas it is a lubricant and a cushion. It also works as an anti oxidant to reduce corrosion. The newer engines have roller rockers and no zinc. Zinc is hard on catalytic converters and will contaminate 02 sensors. The high mileage oils have more zinc or you can now buy good zinc additives. Motor oil has changed significantly in the last 10 years and it is going to get worse for old engines. A very good additive is GM's EOS. It has been around forever and works well.
Barry

[NORTH-SHORE(CANADA)]

Hi,
Running 10W30 or synthetic oil in a flathead is fine Ford says 10W, 20W, or 30W depending on temperature and some guy's said in summer use 20W50
So i guess that i got whit 10w30 for now is in spécial a Canadian tire this week
If any one runing a V8 Flathead could hellp
PS no funny joke for the Chevy guy (Ottawa Area)

[Bob Carriere]

Oil being the life line of your engine jokes would not be appropriate,

A lot has been written in the past 18 months in USA car club publications to that effect.

It seems that modern oil is really meant for modern engine and the chemical formulationhas changed. A number of car/truck nuts have noticed that particualrly with old engines being totally rebuilt they had trouble with burning lifters, rings not seating properly, etc ... to the point of accelerated wear or total breakdown.

The solution it seems is to use either diesel engine oil or high mileage oil sold for worn engines. These two oils seem to have retained some of the old formulation and include a higher zinc content and other elements that will soften some of the pounding.

Phil Waterman has some very interesting articles on the subject.

I currently have synthetic gas engine oil in my 261 Chev and will be changing for SHell Rotella 15 w / 40 diesel engine oil....... and it will actually save me money on the purchase.

In your case, if you switch to higly fluid synthetic engine oil in your Ford, you may want to check for leaks.

BooBee

[Phil Waterman]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Oil being the life line of your engine jokes would not be appropriate,
.....
The solution it seems is to use either diesel engine oil or high mileage oil sold for worn engines. These two oils seem to have retained some of the old formulation and include a higher zinc content and other elements that will soften some of the pounding.

Phil Waterman has some very interesting articles on the subject.

...

BooBee

Hi Bob

I'll try and collect up the articles and post them week. When I do I'll post the links here.

Also got some information on temperature readings in various CMP components after hammering the truck around up hill and down and on the interstate. Which I will post.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Phil

Just changed the oil on my truck....... filled with Rotella Diesel 15W 40.....

Glad I did..... the oil that was in had turned black like a diesel engine from over rich mixture...... now after 3 carburator ti si idling very well at low RPM with out the constant use of the choke... I have no idea what went wrong with the other carbs...... guest I will tear them down and reassemble carefully with new kits.....

Can you tell me.... where is the original drain plug on an original 216 oil pan..... ??

Mine on the 261 is directly above the front axle gear cluster..... I had to hold a funnel in one hand the whole time while draining the pan....

Note to anyone installing a 261 or 235 make sure you install a new drain plug on bottom left hand side when facing the front.... under the passenger side..

My crank case holds 8.5 liters with the two PH 8 screw on filters.....

With the vertical filter mount it is very convenient to prefill the filters before installing.

Could not get the temp to go over 150 on a new mechanical temp guage even after driving for 30 minutes across the back field.......

I now drive with the steam valve open all the time..... maybe that keeps it cooler....... if I drive for a while with the valve closed..... when you open it a whole bunch of air/bubbles can be seen in the clear vinyl tubing currently and temporarily in place.....

Cheers

Bob

.....and the rear wheels fling mud quite decoratively in 2 wheel drive....

[hrpearce]

Bob the drain plug is centre rear of sump
See Fig. 1 Section K of MB-C1

[Bob Carriere]

Thanks Robert

That explains why I had so much trouble with the 261 typically meant for a 2 wheel drive truck.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Bob

Well as you know from Rob the original 216 CMP drain pan has the plug on the bottom center rear. Now for the fun 235-261 truck drain pans plugs on the US engines I have have the drain also at the rear center of the pan. My 261 though has a special heavy truck 4x4 pan that I found NOS which has the plug located at front center on the bottom of the sump. The sump is different shaped from the standard US truck. So I guess the answer is there are a number of variations.

Your over rich problem with the carb may be a float adjustment problem or a fuel pressure problem. (over pressure) Look at the fuel preasure spec first page of http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...e%20Manual.htm

I just got a full rebuild kit for my 261 carb and discovered that the float was set to wrong. Engine has even more power now than when you last saw it.

Did loose one important feature in going to the 261 I lost my cruise control. With the 216 you could get on the highway and just put your foot on the floor and forget it. Now with the power of the 261 you actually have to control the speed of the truck.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

HI Phil

The first carb I used was a NOS 261....never opened..... would not run without part choke.... which resulted in black exhaust coloring the winch drum.

The second was one of those NOS mid 60 carb that was sold on EBay.... got a pair of the early postings for $15 each..... when they ran out they were going for $100.......

First carb worked fine until it crapped out in the back field..... never would run smooth again.....

The third carb was the second NOS $15..... runs perfectly.... rioght out of the box.....

The first two did not seem to respond to adjustment form the idle valave screw... the 3rd one runs real smooth...... idles around 400 rpm.... need to get a proper low range tach......

Now get this..... it idles very low and steady at around -10 inch vacuum.....38 pounds oil never above 150 Degree F....... revs up real fast to about -22 inches vacuum.... Dizzy travels well with the vacuum advance..... at speed it reaches 42/44 on the oil.....

Should the vacuum be that low.....??

Old hot rod guy down the road has the old dwell meter gauge which I hope to coach him on showing me how to optimize the settings...

Any suggestions...?

I will need to install a massive spring on the throttle...... driving it on the back field gets very jumpy and my heavy boot keeps punching the accelarator.... that little sucker will spin all 4 wheels on wet grass/mud like crazy....... way too much torque and pep......

Bob

[Grant Bowker]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

HI Phil
Old hot rod guy down the road has the old dwell meter gauge which I hope to coach him on showing me how to optimize the settings...

I will need to install a massive spring on the throttle...... driving it on the back field gets very jumpy and my heavy boot keeps punching the accelarator.... that little sucker will spin all 4 wheels on wet grass/mud like crazy....... way too much torque and pep......
Bob

Can you make sure buddy understands he's doing a group session, I've never understood the dwell meter either, but it seems to have been viewed as an essential tool.

The fix for too high a power to weight ratio is simple, add weight. All of that double layered cab tin and a half ton of box on back will help the traction problem.

[Phil Waterman]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

HI Phil

....
The first two did not seem to respond to adjustment form the idle valave screw... the 3rd one runs real smooth...... idles around 400 rpm.... need to get a proper low range tach......

Now get this..... it idles very low and steady at around -10 inch vacuum.....38 pounds oil never above 150 Degree F....... revs up real fast to about -22 inches vacuum.... Dizzy travels well with the vacuum advance..... at speed it reaches 42/44 on the oil.....

Should the vacuum be that low.....??

Old hot rod guy down the road has the old dwell meter gauge which I hope to coach him on showing me how to optimize the settings...

Any suggestions...?

I will need to install a massive spring on the throttle...... driving it on the back field gets very jumpy and my heavy boot keeps punching the accelarator.... that little sucker will spin all 4 wheels on wet grass/mud like crazy....... way too much torque and pep......

Bob

Hi Bob

What are you getting for fuel pressure? This could play into a lot of issues with the different carbs. The runs good then stops sounds like dirt is get loose in the carb. This could actually be coming from the old gaskets inside the carb. Also be very careful of the little balls and springs and look for dirt in the springs.

The oil pressure of 40-44 is ok that's what the pressure re-leaf is set at with the long oil lines and the remote filters we have both effectively added an oil cooler. The result with mine is even at 400rpm idle it is running around 40 psi. As to the other readings I'll have to bring that info in from the computer in the shop. I'll try to post that this evening.

The gas peddle hop is what I mean I lost my cruise control.

Cheers Phil

[cletrac (RIP)]

When a cab starts acting up from a bit of dirt here and there just rev the motor up and pull the choke until the revs die down and it'll usually pull the offending crud through the jets and cure the problem.Sometimes you have to repeat the procedure a few times to get results. It's a way easier than removing and disassembling the carb.

[Phil Waterman]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

HI Phil

......
.

Now get this..... it idles very low and steady at around -10 inch vacuum.....38 pounds oil never above 150 Degree F....... revs up real fast to about -22 inches vacuum.... Dizzy travels well with the vacuum advance..... at speed it reaches 42/44 on the oil.....

Should the vacuum be that low.....??

Old hot rod guy down the road has the old dwell meter gauge which I hope to coach him on showing me how to optimize the settings...

Any suggestions...?
....

Bob

Hi Bob

Checked my notes from the test stand running of 261 and 235

Concerning oil pressure- Only time I saw oil pressure under 30 PSI was when the engine temperature was 190+ with oil temperature above 170 and RPMs down to 400 RPM. At 300 RPM it got down to 24 PSI.

Concerning vacuum I'm getting 22 inchs at idle 400-500 RPM, running down the highway at indicated 50 MPH on flat ground I'm seeing 5-7 inches. Max vacuum under deceleration is 27-28 inchs.

Just discovered that coil position with the 261 in a Pattern 13 and stock coil holder has the coil hard against the side of the dog house. Which seems to add noise to the cab.

As to your comment about the 216 vs 261 thermostat water outlet to the radiator, looked back at my flow testing notes on the 261 engine running stock 261 water pump and outlet vs 261 engine with 216 pump and thermostat. There doesn't looked to be a measurable difference. I believe that the thermostat is the flow restriction that is really controlling flow through the radiator. One point though in getting the 261 engine to come up to temperature smoothly it looks like this engine really needs to have a connection between the inlet ant outlet for the heater. I installed a 3/8th copper U between this seems to keep the flow going through the engine so that the hot water actually gets to the thermostat. See picture

[Bob Carriere]

HI Phil

I am satisfied with my very steady oil pressure...... lowest at 38 high of 42/44.

I am curretnly running a rubber hose bypass on the water pump outlets BUT will convert to a copper pipe for more dependability.....

I hope this guy who has the dwell meter also as a scale on his meter to read low RPM... I rmember the old Snap-On model had one......

I find it strange that I hae such a low vacuum reading at low rpm..... running a steady 8 to 10 inch vacuum.... picks up vacuum very easily when reving up and tops 25+ when you blip the throttle.....

I can't remember what was the temp setting on the new thermostats 160 or 180....... but the temp never got any higher than 150 on the mechanical gauge.

Will play some more on the beastie this weekend..... and keep you posted...

On the various carbs I used...... the one I would like to use was an original NOS 261 carb.....allows the original airfilter to fit perfectly... Installed out of the box...... never idled properly.... runs fine but needs small amount of choke to idle fast or dies out...

The second carb was an Ebay special.... NOS sealed with diseccant....
intended for a mid 1960 250 cu. in engine so should have the necessary CFM for the 261. Ran fine than quit idling during the BB3 last Summer. NOw this could be dirt..... NOTE.... I am using a new plastic outboard motor fuel tank and all new lines and a NOS glass top fuel pump.....

Plans are to install an original AC (circa 1950) ceramic inline filter between the pump and carburator.

Also, being curious......I plan to buy a new gallon of the stinky carb cleaner solution and do a strip down/rebuild of the NOS 261 carb.... and check the float setting....

The third carb that runs very good is an identical copy of the second NOS carb.... ran fine right out of the sealed packaging.....

How do I test for fuel pressure....? I think I have a vacuum gauge that has a positive scale for about 10 pounds....? would a modified oil gauge work..?

ALSO..... look for a new thread in resto section on spot welder.... need your advice.....

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Bob

The combination vacuum fuel pump gauges are best as they are low range. Most oil pressure gauges just don't give fine enough gradations.

I've got an old Heathkit combination dwell, hi-low tach and volt meter, still works great after 40 years. (Got the manual out for it last year and check the calibration and it was still dead on.)

Talking of tachs what ever you do don't buy one of those little self contained small engine hour meter and tach units. I've tried 4 different types and non-of the ones I have worked well or for very long. All the ones I've had have non-replaceable batteries and they don't work worth a dam below 40F loosing memory.

Cheers Phil