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  #1  
Old 22-10-21, 19:51
Jacques Rioux Jacques Rioux is offline
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Default Canadian 105mm Arty shell markings

Looking to complete a project and thought that this would be the place to ask. I need to create a stencil for a Canadian 105mm arty round, HE. Does anybody have a resource or information that can give me the information that is on the shell and if possible the dimensions of the lettering?
thanks
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  #2  
Old 23-10-21, 04:50
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
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Default Canadian manufacture?

Did Canada manufacture 105-mm Howitzer ammunition or purchase from the US?

I have the marking specs for US 105-mm How HE M1 rounds, which I think conform to NATO standards, so should be close, if that would help.

Mike
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  #3  
Old 23-10-21, 06:21
rob love rob love is offline
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Canada has manufactured it's 105 ammunition since the mid 50s.

The markings are likely standardized between the NATO nations. I think there may be markings in the Cdn C1 105 manual.....I'll have a check tomorrow.
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  #4  
Old 24-10-21, 19:01
rob love rob love is offline
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No full page colour inserts in the manual I'm afraid, but there is what is included in the C1 manual from 1963.
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DSCF0077 (1).jpg   DSCF0078.jpg  

Last edited by rob love; 24-10-21 at 19:09.
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  #5  
Old 25-10-21, 02:15
Jacques Rioux Jacques Rioux is offline
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Awesome! Thanks again gang!
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  #6  
Old 25-10-21, 10:24
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Tony Smith Tony Smith is offline
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Could you post up some pics of your project? Maybe before, during and after?
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  #7  
Old 27-10-21, 23:51
Dennis Cardy Dennis Cardy is offline
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Don't know if this helps.? Live fire Ex. Meaford ranges. 56 Fd. Mid 70's.
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  #8  
Old 28-10-21, 05:29
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cecil View Post
Did Canada manufacture 105-mm Howitzer ammunition or purchase from the US?

I have the marking specs for US 105-mm How HE M1 rounds, which I think conform to NATO standards, so should be close, if that would help.

Mike
The explosives industry in Canada has become concentrated around Valleyfield near Montreal. Canada has small arms ammunition plants near Quebec City as well. Most/all are owned by General Dynamics. I found a Rand Corporation report that explained in smart arguments, that civilian for-profit ownership of certain defence industry sectors made more sense than to leave them in Crown Corporation or government departmental ownership.

Mike, to answer your specific question - https://www.gd-otscanada.com/services/all-caliber-lap/
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  #9  
Old 28-10-21, 17:51
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
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Thanks Terry - all good info to know.

I can add (or muddy the waters?) to the markings info with the comment that, sometime after the diagram in Rob's post, both the USA and Australia (so I think it must be a NATO standard?) included a broad yellow band around the projectile, just below the shoulder. My US diagram is dated in the 1990s, and the images I have of Australian manufactured 105mm How HE ammunition show they were manufactured in the early 1990s. I took the images on the gunline during a live shoot in 2008. The howitzers were L118 Hamel.

I also looked at some period images on the AWM website, and this one:
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C318682

taken in August 1969 shows an M1 projectile with a light coloured band about to be loaded into an M2A2.


And this one, but date of manufacture unknown: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1142179

But this one in 1967 does not: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C314824


I should also add that all 105 H ammunition fired by Australian gunners in South Vietnam was US supplied, not Australian.


Maybe it will depend on what time period is being represented?

Mike

Last edited by Mike Cecil; 28-10-21 at 18:23.
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  #10  
Old 28-10-21, 17:56
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
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Dennis, interesting image, thank you for posting: the projectiles seem to have a 1978 manufacture/filling date, which brings my previous comments about the yellow band into question in so far as Canadian production is concerned.

Mike
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  #11  
Old 28-10-21, 19:24
rob love rob love is offline
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According to my chart above, the yellow band would denote a smoke round. If you really want confirmation, I can ask an artillery guy over at the main museum.
My chart is from the 1963 manual so may be dated. I can check the library here and see if we have something newer.
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  #12  
Old 28-10-21, 21:01
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
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Default Colours and markings change

Hi Rob,

Would be very interested to know if the yellow band was ever introduced for Canadian production 105-mm How HE rounds.

The visual difference between the 105-mm How HE and SMK rounds was always the overall colour: drab olive for the HE, a duck egg blue-grey colour for SMK. The listed width of the yellow band in the 1994 US manual, when used on both rounds, was different, too: 1 inch for HE, 1/2 inch for SMK. SMK rounds seem to have morphed to a brown coloured band, as per the 1993-filled rounds pictured below, which I think are of US manufacture. The HC indicates the smoke compound, the BE is Base Ejection. WP SMK (white phospherous, point-detonating round, not BE) seem to have the yellow band, as per the AWM image in post #9. The M1 rounds were 2006-manufacture by Aust Defence Industries (ADI). The small squares around the neck of both projectiles are supposed to be 1/2 inch x 1/2 inch. I've also got some earlier images of SMK rounds showing the stencilling in red, so there were obviously changes over time, or inconsistencies with the 'rules'.

The images below were taken in 2009.

Mike
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s-IMG_0929.JPG   s-IMG_0931.JPG   S-IMG_0915.JPG  

Last edited by Mike Cecil; 28-10-21 at 21:08.
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  #13  
Old 31-10-21, 23:41
rob love rob love is offline
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I asked a more senior artilleryman, and he does not recall ever having seen the yellow band on HE rounds. As to the WP smoke, he told me Canada quit using them...not clear if it was environmentally unfriendly or considered chemical warfare which we have backed out of along with landmines.



I tried to find some more modern manuals, but their ammunition sections did not have as much information as the old manual had.
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  #14  
Old 01-11-21, 00:14
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
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Thanks Rob.


Mike
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  #15  
Old 01-11-21, 02:58
edstorey edstorey is offline
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Default 105mm Ammunition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cecil View Post
Did Canada manufacture 105-mm Howitzer ammunition or purchase from the US?

I have the marking specs for US 105-mm How HE M1 rounds, which I think conform to NATO standards, so should be close, if that would help.

Mike
The 1986 Arsenals Canada product catalogue listed the following range of artillery ammunition:

155mm Howitzer Shell, HE (TNT or Comp B), M107.
105mm Howitzer HE (TNT or Comp B) M1 Cartridge, Fuze M557/M739.
105mm Howitzer Practice Cartridge, Squash Head, C60.
105mm Howitzer Blank C29A1

Propelling Charge M119A2.
Propelling Charge M4A1.
Propelling Charge M4A2.
Propelling Charge M3.
Propelling Charge M3A1.
Propelling Charge M67 (for 105mm How.).
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  #16  
Old 02-11-21, 19:04
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
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Thanks Ed
Mike
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  #17  
Old 03-11-21, 14:05
rob love rob love is offline
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Here is a youtube video of the Alaskan railway shooting HE on their AVCON gun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKlNzalXUFI
No yellow band on their ammunition.
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  #18  
Old 03-11-21, 16:23
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
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Thanks Rob. Now you have me wondering why the differences ... another research rabbit hole awaits!

Mike
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