MG Battalion vehicle markings, Canadian Corps, 1940-42

[DougR]

I would be grateful if anyone can shed light on the identity of the unit of the Canadian Corps (1940-42) that used the serial number '47'.

I understand from information on www.canadiansoldiers.com that this was a Machine Gun Battalion, but am struggling to figure out which regiment they actually were.

According to Orders of Battle that I can find, MG Battalions for mid-1942 (but, by then, split between the two Canadian corps') included The Saskatoon Light Infantry in 1st Div, The Toronto Scottish in 2nd Div and The Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa in 3rd Div.

Any insights appreciated!

[Bruce Parker]

Post 1942 the machine gun regiments in both infantry and armoured divisions were '64' (on black). '47' appears as an artillery number (on red over blue) in infantry divisions. Perhaps they were this from the first introduction of these flashes on arriving in England in 1940.

I don't have the full chart but '47' on black was used by the Royal Canadian Dragoons when they were attached to the 5th Armoured Division in 1941 as their armoured car regiment, and wore the same '47' for a time when they were assigned to the 1st Corps before adopting the later '44' on green over blue.

[DougR]

I am particularly interested in the earlier designations, as used during 1940-41.

This relates to '47' used in combination with Canadian Corps sign, so a corps unit. This would be consistent with corps' designations mentioned on https://www.canadiansoldiers.com/veh...lemarkings.htm which indicates '45' to '47' (on plain red square) as being for MG battalions. I am keen to know which infantry regiments/battalions these would have been.

[Ed Storey]

Canadian Corps use of serial 47

Canadian Corps up to 1940

47 on diagonal red/green RCASC - Secs Sup Pers Coy

I don't see 47 being used at the Corps level after 1940.

[DougR]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Canadian Corps use of serial 47

Canadian Corps up to 1940

47 on diagonal red/green RCASC - Secs Sup Pers Coy

I don't see 47 being used at the Corps level after 1940.

Thank you Ed, then it must be from 1940, and most probably for Canadian Scottish infantry regiment.

[DougR]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Canadian Corps use of serial 47

Canadian Corps up to 1940

47 on diagonal red/green RCASC - Secs Sup Pers Coy

I don't see 47 being used at the Corps level after 1940.

Hi Ed,

This is the table featured on www.canadiansoldiers.com on which I am finding '47' for MG Battalions of Canadian Corps...

The table evidently relates to "Early in the war", but not sure which specific time period.

[Ed Storey]

I am familiar with that cart and the question I have is where did the source data come from as the RCASC should be green on left, red on right divided diagonally from top left to bottom right.

For 1942 I have the Royal Montreal Regiment (MG) as the Corps MG Battalion with a AoS of white 46 on a red square.

[Bruce Parker]

For what it's worth, RCD Fox, 1st Canadian Corps from at least late 1942 or later. I have information the same 47 was worn when the RCD was attached to the newly arrived in the UK 5th Division. Why there was a carryover of the sign I can't say.

[Ed Storey]

That is an interesting photograph and I am glad that you posted it.

Yes, when part of 5th Canadian Armoured Division the RCD's did use a white 47 on a black square.

While serving with the 1st Canadian Corps in Italy I have them recorded as being assigned a white 45 on a green over blue square.

Now there is a chance that for a short time from when they were reassigned from 5 Div to 1 Corps that the RCD's still retained the 47.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by DougR

I would be grateful if anyone can shed light on the identity of the unit of the Canadian Corps (1940-42) that used the serial number '47'.

I understand from information on www.canadiansoldiers.com that this was a Machine Gun Battalion, but am struggling to figure out which regiment they actually were.

Doug,

I don't know if I can provide a definitive answer for you, but I have the following.

When 1 Cdn Div embarked for England in December 1939, it contained three MG battalions. The reason being that, at the time, each infantry brigade contained an MG battalion. MG battalions later became a Corps asset, and no further MG battalions were sent overseas until April 1941.

The first three MG battalions were:
The Saskatoon Light Infantry (M.G.);
The Royal Montreal Regiment (M.G.); and
The Toronto Scottish Regiment (M.G.).

Once the MG battalions became Corps assets, they would have been assigned Corps serials. It's also best to remember that units, when numbering was involved, were done so in order of seniority. The seniority of the three battalions were as they're listed above with the SLI being the senior and the TSR being the junior.

I would also suggest the serials 45, 46 and 47 would have been assigned accordingly. So there is a very good chance that Corps serial 47 in 1940 would have been for The Toronto Scottish Regiment (M.G.).

Cheers,
Dan.

[DougR]

Originally Posted by Dan Martel

Doug,

I don't know if I can provide a definitive answer for you, but I have the following.

When 1 Cdn Div embarked for England in December 1939, it contained three MG battalions. The reason being that, at the time, each infantry brigade contained an MG battalion. MG battalions later became a Corps asset, and no further MG battalions were sent overseas until April 1941.

The first three MG battalions were:
The Saskatoon Light Infantry (M.G.);
The Royal Montreal Regiment (M.G.); and
The Toronto Scottish Regiment (M.G.).

Once the MG battalions became Corps assets, they would have been assigned Corps serials. It's also best to remember that units, when numbering was involved, were done so in order of seniority. The seniority of the three battalions were as they're listed above with the SLI being the senior and the TSR being the junior.

I would also suggest the serials 45, 46 and 47 would have been assigned accordingly. So there is a very good chance that Corps serial 47 in 1940 would have been for The Toronto Scottish Regiment (M.G.).

Cheers,
Dan.

Thank you for this information Dan!

It would indeed make sense that '47' was for The Toronto Scottish Regiment.

The reason for my enquiry is in connection with the attached photo which I recently came across. The Canadian Corps vehicle marking and the absence of insignia on the uniform of the driver would suggest that the photo was taken c.1940. The tam o'shanter would be consistent with The Toronto Scottish Regiment.

[Bruce Parker]

Originally Posted by DougR

Thank you for this information Dan!

It would indeed make sense that '47' was for The Toronto Scottish Regiment.

The reason for my enquiry is in connection with the attached photo which I recently came across. The Canadian Corps vehicle marking and the absence of insignia on the uniform of the driver would suggest that the photo was taken c.1940. The tam o'shanter would be consistent with The Toronto Scottish Regiment.

It's hard to see in the photo, perhaps the original is better, but does the Corp patch have a dark band in the centre (ie. red/black/red). The white band at the top suggests a Corp insignia. Also, does the cap badge on the balmoral offer any clue? I know it's probably hard to judge but the Toronto Scottish badge is distinctive and even a blurry shape might be a giveaway. Apparently the Tor Scotts wore blue putties early on too. This assumes it is his car he's standing beside.

[DougR]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

It's hard to see in the photo, perhaps the original is better, but does the Corp patch have a dark band in the centre (ie. red/black/red). The white band at the top suggests a Corp insignia. Also, does the cap badge on the balmoral offer any clue? I know it's probably hard to judge but the Toronto Scottish badge is distinctive and even a blurry shape might be a giveaway. Apparently the Tor Scotts wore blue putties early on too. This assumes it is his car he's standing beside.

The Corps sign does not appear to have any dark band running through the middle, but looks to be a plain red square. I understand that this was the version used by the Canadian Corps in 1940, before the creation of the 2nd Canadian Corps.

Unfortunately, it is not possible to see the cap badge of the driver. He appears to be wearing 1937 Pattern webbing gaiters, rather than puttees. Nevertheless, based on the information already shared, I am convinced that he should be from The Toronto Scottish Regiment.

[Ed Storey]

That is a lovely early war photograph and helps build a better picture of the AoS markings employed at the time. Even without being able to see the insignia, I would support the theory that the fellow in the photograph was from the Toronto Scottish and could quite possibly be a driver. What is the source of the photograph and has it been cropped?

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by DougR

The reason for my enquiry is in connection with the attached photo which I recently came across.

Would you be able to provide a higher resolution image of the photograph?