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  #1  
Old 10-11-17, 03:54
Robin Craig's Avatar
Robin Craig Robin Craig is offline
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Wink Canadair CL70 CFR 58-91588

I guess every cloud has a silver lining. Just a number of weeks ago I was all ready to acquire a project vehicle when the owner changed his mind.

I have had a number of possible projects all awaiting the right funding and opportunity and so when that one fell through I touched base with our local friend Mike Calnan about the Canadair CL70 we had been negotiating on. Once confirmed that all was still good I proceeded to make a recce as this end of the province has been closing out the fall with rain, lots of it.

So, confirmation of the literal lie of the land formulated my plans and a mutually agreeable day was arranged. I booked a rental trailer and small excavator from fellow MV owner Ryan Harriman.

A phone call was made to Peter Duggan who leapt at the chance to come recover something.

So a few days ago we arrived at Mikes place and went for a walk into the tall grass storage and poked around. After some comparison Mike offered me the opportunity to take both front cars with me as the second one has parts I will need and it is easier to take them off at a shop rather than in the field. This decision had implications later. This second front car will be returned later.

All was in order and so we walked the excavator in and started attaching to the individual front and rear cars one by one and lifting them free from the ground. They came free easily and the excavator was good at providing gentle but controllable tension to get them moving. The rear car that didn't want to roll the tracks slid well over the wet grass.

Once we had all three pieces out of the field we backed the trailer in. As part of the purchase a spare chassis frame was included.

We had thought we were taking home just two pieces and the excavator couldn't lift anything onto the back deck of the truck, so we loaded the rear car and frame onto the trailer and headed a few miles to a local business that has an overhead crane and cross decked the pair onto the back of the truck.

Returning to the field we then used the excavator to draw the front car straight up onto the trailer from alongside.

Peter was chief tape measure operator and declared that the second front car needed to be slewed across the trailer once the excavator was loaded in the middle to balance the trailer reasonably.

It took a while to tie down but we were on the road in daylight. A stop a few miles away confirmed that some parts needed attention and the rest was well secure.

The unload I did solo and it went so much faster.

There will be a short delay while other pressing projects get sorted but the planning on this project is well underway and there will be posts from time to time as things happen.

Should any of you have information about this wonderful machine please don't hesitate to chime in.

My thanks go to Mike Calnan who is great to negotiate with, Peter Duggan as drivers and loaders mate and fresh air inspector extraordinaire, Ryan Harriman in the equipment rental department and lastly in her starring role, my lady Jan in the role of the understanding partner and money mover.

If anyone can rotate the two pictures please do so as I have tried in vain.

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Robin Craig

Home of the Maple Leaf Adapter
2 Canadian Mk1 Ferrets
Kawasaki KLR250 CFR 95-10908 ex PPCLI
Canadair CL70 CFR 58-91588
Armstrong MT500 serial CFR 86-78530
Two Canam 250s
Land Rover S3 Commanders Caravan Carawagon 16 GN 07
Trailer Cargo 3/4 T 2WHD 38 GJ 62

Last edited by Hanno Spoelstra; 10-11-17 at 15:50. Reason: rotated the two pictures
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  #2  
Old 10-11-17, 04:08
Wayne Hingley's Avatar
Wayne Hingley Wayne Hingley is offline
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Looks like something you will need this winter!

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  #3  
Old 10-11-17, 05:34
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Thanks Wayne,

A lot of pondering may go on this winter but I need to focus a bit on other projects but I am amazed how simple the machine is.
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Robin Craig

Home of the Maple Leaf Adapter
2 Canadian Mk1 Ferrets
Kawasaki KLR250 CFR 95-10908 ex PPCLI
Canadair CL70 CFR 58-91588
Armstrong MT500 serial CFR 86-78530
Two Canam 250s
Land Rover S3 Commanders Caravan Carawagon 16 GN 07
Trailer Cargo 3/4 T 2WHD 38 GJ 62
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  #4  
Old 10-11-17, 06:53
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Default I had thought of these as well.

When I had been up there a month ago I looked at these and thought they were a simple and small project. I am glad they found a home, close to home and will watch for updates. Peter it seems, is always up for a recovery. Next time perhaps he will be the one buying something?
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  #5  
Old 10-11-17, 15:28
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Glad to see projects are moving from one collection to another. Willing and cooperative sellers is always better than dealing with an auctioneer, an estate clearer or grieving survivors.

To paraphrase a fellow I saw on TV once, who collected specific antique farm equipment. "Funeral at noon. Auction sale at 2:00. Refreshments will be served. Don't park on the shoulders of the highway."
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- 74-????? M151A2
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  #6  
Old 10-11-17, 15:55
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Are there any “Before” pictures of this piece of equipment?

David
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  #7  
Old 10-11-17, 22:43
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Default Canadair RAT in GTA

I spotted this one in the Toronto about 2013. 58-91572. Also there is a very nice manual on the RAT. Brian
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Last edited by BCA; 10-11-17 at 23:11.
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  #8  
Old 12-11-17, 01:05
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Brian,

would you be he supplier of the said "very nice manual on the RAT"?

Anyone who knows anything about his machine or others in existence please pass the info along or invite folks to make contact.

Yes Jon it is a simple project, I just need to keep my priorities in focus.
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Home of the Maple Leaf Adapter
2 Canadian Mk1 Ferrets
Kawasaki KLR250 CFR 95-10908 ex PPCLI
Canadair CL70 CFR 58-91588
Armstrong MT500 serial CFR 86-78530
Two Canam 250s
Land Rover S3 Commanders Caravan Carawagon 16 GN 07
Trailer Cargo 3/4 T 2WHD 38 GJ 62
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  #9  
Old 15-11-17, 12:36
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Robin Craig Robin Craig is offline
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Like a giddy school kid I couldn't wait for my working day to end in Guelph yesterday and take advantage of the fact I would be passing Brian Asbury's shop on my way home, his teaser of a manual being available had filled my head with fantastic images like a child thinking of sugar plum cakes near Christmas.

When I arrived at Brian's place there was a trove of other gems awaiting purchase and we dealt with that first. All the time I was imagining what generation copy of a manual he had.

We finally retired to his office and he passed it to me and I was shocked. It is an original bound manual covering both operating and maintenance and parts all rolled into one with some very explicit cutaway drawing of various parts and good simple explanations.

The covers are a work or art and the rear has an embossed set of track imprints curving towards the spine.

Brian is going to have two copies of the manual made, one for me to use in the shop and the other for his library. So while I have touched the manual I will not get to digest it until the post office delivers it in a week or so.

Once again, thank you to Brian Asbury aka BCA on this forum and I look forward to my early Christmas present.
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cl70 manual 01.jpg   cl70 manual 02.jpg   cl70 manual 03.jpg  
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Robin Craig

Home of the Maple Leaf Adapter
2 Canadian Mk1 Ferrets
Kawasaki KLR250 CFR 95-10908 ex PPCLI
Canadair CL70 CFR 58-91588
Armstrong MT500 serial CFR 86-78530
Two Canam 250s
Land Rover S3 Commanders Caravan Carawagon 16 GN 07
Trailer Cargo 3/4 T 2WHD 38 GJ 62
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  #10  
Old 15-11-17, 12:40
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Through the normally vacuous medium of the dreaded Facebook I have been dealt another gem in the form of contact with a former CF mechanic who worked on these who dropped me a line and his phone number.

When I have time tonight I will try to call Don Chisolm and see what he has to say.

I feel blessed almost
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Robin Craig

Home of the Maple Leaf Adapter
2 Canadian Mk1 Ferrets
Kawasaki KLR250 CFR 95-10908 ex PPCLI
Canadair CL70 CFR 58-91588
Armstrong MT500 serial CFR 86-78530
Two Canam 250s
Land Rover S3 Commanders Caravan Carawagon 16 GN 07
Trailer Cargo 3/4 T 2WHD 38 GJ 62
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  #11  
Old 15-11-17, 23:33
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Canadair CL-70 'Rat'

There is one 58-91570 in the CWM sitting in the Lebreton Gallery.

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  #12  
Old 16-11-17, 01:45
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That one Ed has no engine, it was removed because it made it too heavy for easy handling in the museum I am told.
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Home of the Maple Leaf Adapter
2 Canadian Mk1 Ferrets
Kawasaki KLR250 CFR 95-10908 ex PPCLI
Canadair CL70 CFR 58-91588
Armstrong MT500 serial CFR 86-78530
Two Canam 250s
Land Rover S3 Commanders Caravan Carawagon 16 GN 07
Trailer Cargo 3/4 T 2WHD 38 GJ 62
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  #13  
Old 16-11-17, 02:29
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Rat 91570

Engine removed because it was too heavy to move, nothing surprises me when it comes to the CWM vehicle collection. Note as well that the one fuel cap is missing.
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  #14  
Old 16-11-17, 11:06
Wayne Henderson Wayne Henderson is offline
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Default Canadair

Nice Rat. Is the hull aluminium?
Brian, I also have a Canadair product and am also looking for a manual, a CL13B, no luck finding a copy here in Australia yet.
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Old 17-11-17, 04:20
BCA BCA is offline
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Wayne, sorry I have not seen any other Canadair manuals. The Rat manual was a lucky find years ago. ... Brian
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  #16  
Old 17-11-17, 11:46
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So, yesterday evening I made initial contact with Mr Chisholm by phone and we had a good discussion.

He was RCEME attached to the RCR in London ON in the early 1960s and had a lot of time spent supporting the CL70 Rat. He went with them all over the artic and remembers them well.

I asked him what the biggest faults were with the machine. He said that the lack of any braking system was an issue. There was talk of an incident on an airstrip where one ploughed into the side of a Hercules and caused damage.

Another flaw was the cleats in the tracks on ice which allowed the machine to slide sideways as if on skates. Add to this the inability of the springs on the cable steering system to be able to full control the slack that develops when crossing major ruts and causing the cable to birds nest on the steering shaft.

All great first hand information.

We have agreed that he will come out and visit mine over the winter in a dry shop at work.
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Home of the Maple Leaf Adapter
2 Canadian Mk1 Ferrets
Kawasaki KLR250 CFR 95-10908 ex PPCLI
Canadair CL70 CFR 58-91588
Armstrong MT500 serial CFR 86-78530
Two Canam 250s
Land Rover S3 Commanders Caravan Carawagon 16 GN 07
Trailer Cargo 3/4 T 2WHD 38 GJ 62
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  #17  
Old 17-11-17, 14:37
rob love rob love is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Craig View Post
had a lot of time spent supporting the CL70 Rat. He went with them all over the artic and remembers them well.
I spent a couple weeks in the Arctic supporting a later bombardier snowmachine: the alpine. I thought we had cold in Manitoba, and don't get me wrong, our climate in the winter is absolutely life threatening. But up there was a whole nuther storey.

Mr Chisholm has my respect.
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  #18  
Old 17-11-17, 15:50
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Story vs Storey

I have never served in the Canada's north.
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  #19  
Old 18-02-18, 00:22
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Robin Craig Robin Craig is offline
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So,

it has been a while and we have not been standing still. I say we, as my very good friend Gerry Foster and I have slowly been working away but neglecting to post our progress.

First of all, we had the most enjoyable evening with Don Chisholm. We met him at a restaurant locally and spent supper talking over his association with the RAT and his later career in the RCEME.

Don was stationed in London On attached to the RCR and recalls the vehicle with a tremendous amount of clarity, not bad as he is now 82.

Over supper he recounted the incident of the RAT at Bagotville and how an impression was made in the side of a very new Hercules C130. The operator of the vehicle had realised that he had too much speed and because there is no foot brake was not going to be able to stop before a collision. So he turned the machine sideways, at this point inertia took over and the cleats on the tracks were now in line with the former path and took over and became skates and allowed the RAT to glide into the C130, thud.

Don and I had spoken by phone and I was impressed how the same incidents were repeated without variation at supper. We found out that Don was obviously well regarded within his trade as he ended up in the UK during the development of the CVR(T) family of vehicles as the representative from Canada as it was thought that Canada would go down the light armour route.

After supper we moved our meet to the workshop where we had moved the units inside for the evening. Bear in mind my own garage / workshop is a work in progress so I use the shop at work by gracious permission of my employer. The only stipulation is all material has to be out by the end of the night. It makes for a bit of a circus but allows progress.

After many years here is Don re united with a RAT with his unit's marking on the front.
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Robin Craig

Home of the Maple Leaf Adapter
2 Canadian Mk1 Ferrets
Kawasaki KLR250 CFR 95-10908 ex PPCLI
Canadair CL70 CFR 58-91588
Armstrong MT500 serial CFR 86-78530
Two Canam 250s
Land Rover S3 Commanders Caravan Carawagon 16 GN 07
Trailer Cargo 3/4 T 2WHD 38 GJ 62
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  #20  
Old 18-02-18, 00:45
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Robin Craig Robin Craig is offline
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I am blessed with access to a full sized tractor with pallet forks which makes a huge difference in being able to shunt the units in and out of the shop.

They we placed on pallets and then some extra pallets underneath to provide a stand off from the snow and ice of winter. Temporary covers over the top keeps the weather out.

Over Christmas I had time to leave them in our shop over the holiday and left them dry out and we cleaned out the hulls of many years of debris.We found many trinkets and had everything in cardboard boxes and I was struggling with how to deal with the myriad of parts that a job like this generates and how they would be inventoried.

We decided that the rear car would be the best to start with and Gerry has stripped it down and removed the drive train and track which then gave access to the underside of the hollow structural steel (HSS) chassis and the bolts that secured it to the rear car. We decided as the chassis is going to have to be made new we would doing any grinding underneath and not mark the tub which is aluminum. The underside of the tub had been coated with a rocker guard type of material likely to prevent abrasion from track thrown debris in use.

The track is a jointed track with a simple bolted and hinged connection. The axles butt up to the inside of the chassis and a bolt keeps it snug and located. There is a basic track tension mechanism in the sides. The front and rear cars drove from opposite ends, so there is a shaft running the full length underneath with a hanger bearing assembly along the way and a simple differential unit that couples to the axle with the drive sprockets. The shafts are connected with a strange tapered fastener with a nut n the end. Many f these did not come apart easily and were destroyed. The pattern piece that was saved will go to our machinist Andy for him to make some new ones for the rebuild.

Sadly Gerry has been doing most of the work as I have been working nights on the Township plow truck, but I can tell you Gerry is much faster than me when he works and is so much more skilled at least I know my hours of plowing is paying for his labour. That is just the way the cookie crumbles, but in the end progress is being made.
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Robin Craig

Home of the Maple Leaf Adapter
2 Canadian Mk1 Ferrets
Kawasaki KLR250 CFR 95-10908 ex PPCLI
Canadair CL70 CFR 58-91588
Armstrong MT500 serial CFR 86-78530
Two Canam 250s
Land Rover S3 Commanders Caravan Carawagon 16 GN 07
Trailer Cargo 3/4 T 2WHD 38 GJ 62
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  #21  
Old 18-02-18, 00:54
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We knew that both the front and rear chassis would have to be replaced, We acquired as part of the purchase a spare NOS unit.

We took some time recently to look at both of them side by side in some detail with a view to understand how they were made and how we will be making a new one. It was also time to closely inspect the NOS chassis that we knew had some damage owing to ice forming from ingress of water at incomplete weld joints over the years.

Our first surprise is that the the NOS chassis is not the same as the removed one. There is an extra axle support assembly that makes no sense to us, and that there are some longitudinal pieces missing. We don't know what other variant or earlier development this came from but in all other dimensional issues it is the same.

We have made a list of all the material needed for a new chassis and this long weekend I will be attempting to make a jig to build the new chassis on by using the old one as a template.
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Robin Craig

Home of the Maple Leaf Adapter
2 Canadian Mk1 Ferrets
Kawasaki KLR250 CFR 95-10908 ex PPCLI
Canadair CL70 CFR 58-91588
Armstrong MT500 serial CFR 86-78530
Two Canam 250s
Land Rover S3 Commanders Caravan Carawagon 16 GN 07
Trailer Cargo 3/4 T 2WHD 38 GJ 62
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  #22  
Old 18-02-18, 01:00
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Robin Craig Robin Craig is offline
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The issues of parts storage has been solved by the purchase of a pair of ex Canadian Air Force pallet storage boxes of some considerable quality.

These units came up by absolute providence on GC Surplus and I really wanted them so made a good bid to ensure I would be successful. These are fibreglass with double doors at one end and adjustable shelving and some very nice tote boxes with lids and dividers on each shelf.

It is a huge leap forward and these two will get plenty of use over the coming years on a number of projects
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IMG_20180213_132202.jpg   IMG_20180213_135025_hdr.jpg   IMG_20180213_140112.jpg  
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Robin Craig

Home of the Maple Leaf Adapter
2 Canadian Mk1 Ferrets
Kawasaki KLR250 CFR 95-10908 ex PPCLI
Canadair CL70 CFR 58-91588
Armstrong MT500 serial CFR 86-78530
Two Canam 250s
Land Rover S3 Commanders Caravan Carawagon 16 GN 07
Trailer Cargo 3/4 T 2WHD 38 GJ 62
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Old 18-02-18, 04:06
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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What is the NATO stock number of your pallet-mounted tool box? I might be able to find out the original price. Then, you'll see whether you or the Queen got the better deal on auction.
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- 74-????? M151A2
- 70-08876 M38A1
- 53-71233 M100CDN trailer

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Old 18-02-18, 15:09
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Terry I will look for the NSN over the next couple of days.

Thank you
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Robin Craig

Home of the Maple Leaf Adapter
2 Canadian Mk1 Ferrets
Kawasaki KLR250 CFR 95-10908 ex PPCLI
Canadair CL70 CFR 58-91588
Armstrong MT500 serial CFR 86-78530
Two Canam 250s
Land Rover S3 Commanders Caravan Carawagon 16 GN 07
Trailer Cargo 3/4 T 2WHD 38 GJ 62
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Old 18-02-18, 15:44
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We have through another forum found that there is another RAT undergoing a make over up at the Montreal Aviation Museum under the stewardship of Mr Ken Frincken.

The unit they have is not quite the same as this one and I suspect that as it came from the estate of a former Canadair senior employee that it may be an pre production unit judging by some of the comments that he has made.

Theirs is ahead of our in completion and we expect to visit each others machines during the coming year, if not get them side by side.

In delving through some of the photos sent by Ken I have spotted that the chassis frame of theirs has the centre support as our spare does, something tells me theirs is a pre production machine and ours is a later machine.
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mam rat 07.jpg   mam rat 02.jpg   mam rat 03.jpg  
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Robin Craig

Home of the Maple Leaf Adapter
2 Canadian Mk1 Ferrets
Kawasaki KLR250 CFR 95-10908 ex PPCLI
Canadair CL70 CFR 58-91588
Armstrong MT500 serial CFR 86-78530
Two Canam 250s
Land Rover S3 Commanders Caravan Carawagon 16 GN 07
Trailer Cargo 3/4 T 2WHD 38 GJ 62
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Old 18-02-18, 15:53
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This past week we started into the front car of ours.

It had been suggested that the car was built around the fuel tanks. We suspected differently and that was our direction.

After removing the flange from around the filler neck we would see the filler neck flange connection to the fuel tank. We knew then that progress to remove the tanks was indeed very possible.

The tanks are held suspended off the floor of the car by two saddle straps that are bolted through the side of the car. Once we got these apart and were able to twist and fenagle the tanks around we could get all the crews out and the necks came off. Once the lines were off the tanks came out quite easily.

I want to try to get one tank functioning if at all possible, I am ok with having one only, the other tank looks sketchy, but we haven't look at the tanks in the parts front car as yet.

The best tank will go out for cleaning this coming week.
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Robin Craig

Home of the Maple Leaf Adapter
2 Canadian Mk1 Ferrets
Kawasaki KLR250 CFR 95-10908 ex PPCLI
Canadair CL70 CFR 58-91588
Armstrong MT500 serial CFR 86-78530
Two Canam 250s
Land Rover S3 Commanders Caravan Carawagon 16 GN 07
Trailer Cargo 3/4 T 2WHD 38 GJ 62
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Old 18-02-18, 15:55
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One of the details on the vehicle that intrigues me and I really want to make sure gets cleaned up and noticed is the centre of the steering wheel. It just says "pride" to me.
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Robin Craig

Home of the Maple Leaf Adapter
2 Canadian Mk1 Ferrets
Kawasaki KLR250 CFR 95-10908 ex PPCLI
Canadair CL70 CFR 58-91588
Armstrong MT500 serial CFR 86-78530
Two Canam 250s
Land Rover S3 Commanders Caravan Carawagon 16 GN 07
Trailer Cargo 3/4 T 2WHD 38 GJ 62
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  #28  
Old 20-02-18, 03:13
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This being a long weekend in Ontario for most people except Post Office employees, I got some time to do some more work.

I started by building a small deck platform to the same external size as the chassis frame. Then I cut a bunch of small blocks and stops and created this chassis jig.

I still need to make another jig for the side of the chassis but that is a job for Tuesday night as the glue has to set up on this overnight.

I have a take off for the material and hopefully this week I shall be cutting stock and fabricating part of a frame. We suspect that the originals were produced using oxyacetylene welding. We will be using mig for ours. The last picture shows some if the ice damage caused where water go inside the frame.

I am dead chuffed with the progress.
Attached Thumbnails
cl70 chassis jig 01.jpg   cl70 chassis jig 02.jpg   cl70 chassis ice damage.jpg  
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Old 20-02-18, 03:16
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Robin Craig Robin Craig is offline
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I get a chuckle out of the fact over 900 people have viewed this thread but very few comments.
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Home of the Maple Leaf Adapter
2 Canadian Mk1 Ferrets
Kawasaki KLR250 CFR 95-10908 ex PPCLI
Canadair CL70 CFR 58-91588
Armstrong MT500 serial CFR 86-78530
Two Canam 250s
Land Rover S3 Commanders Caravan Carawagon 16 GN 07
Trailer Cargo 3/4 T 2WHD 38 GJ 62
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Old 20-02-18, 04:10
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Stupid looks are free. And you want us to pile on with rude remarks now?
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