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  #1  
Old 23-06-13, 11:39
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Alastair McMurray
 
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Default Help with Ignition System

I am getting towards the end of my 221ci Flathead V8 engine rebuild and have a question about HT lead conduits. Could anyone be kind enough to post any images from wartime manuals?
I have a set of British conduits which due to the odd placement of holes I think is for the Lucas Distributor. The ones test fitted in the photo below came from a post 1942 engine with the Crab Distributor as fitted to mine. What I am trying to get to the bottom of is why there are only two holes in the conduit for three plugs (fourth comes out of the end - British conduit has three holes) and what the holes on the inside are for?





One hole may be for the lead from the coil down to the Distributor.... which brings me on to the location of the coil, I have a special bracket for mounting the bakalite 'Ford' coil above the front of the LH head, whas this ever used in war spec engines? Does anyone have details for the normal layout of the HT system on these 1942-45 USA manufactured engines? I am hoping for parts book images
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Last edited by ajmac; 23-06-13 at 11:47.
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  #2  
Old 23-06-13, 11:56
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Hi,
The conduit with only two holes is for a British engine which has an ignition filter unit bolted to the two cylinder head studs adjacent to where you expect the hole to be, the coil would be along side it. The HT lead for that front cylinder does not appear to come up the tube. cannot post a pic of this at present, but it is Fig 53 in Chilwell manual 63/63 for Universal Carriers.

regards, Richard
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  #3  
Old 23-06-13, 12:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmac View Post
- British conduit has three holes
The conduit with 3 holes will be for engines without wireless / radio filter mounted on the left head. Normal trucks and cars would use the 3 hole conduit as not fitted with wireless equipment.
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Old 23-06-13, 13:48
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I hope these pictures help. If they are not clear enough send your E Mail in a PM and I will send you full size images.
Attached Thumbnails
P6230662a.jpg   P6230663a.jpg  
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Old 23-06-13, 14:55
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Default Carrier HT lead pics

Here are two photos from manuals, the drawing shows the HT leads on a Canadian Mk1, the photo is the British Carrier, with Lucas coil and Ign Filter unit, blocking where the hole in the tube would be and HT lead for No.5 coming straight up from the dizzy.
Attached Thumbnails
Carrier HT Cdn Mk1.jpg   Carrier HT Brit.jpg  
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  #6  
Old 23-06-13, 15:47
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Alistair, I haven't been through this yet, either. So this is a guess
The British dizzy allows for the leads to cross at the cap.
The crab dizzy doesn't, and so leads 3 and 5 must cross over on top of the motor.
There are different conduits for the different dizzys, and each has its left and right. So no 5 lead comes from the other side tube (on the inside)etc. See Robert's first picture.
I assume you intend to remove your pumps to press the pulleys on?
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Last edited by Lynn Eades; 23-06-13 at 15:54.
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Old 23-06-13, 22:12
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Thanks to all.
The manual shots with the Crab distributor give all the detail that I require! I never thought to compare the crab distributor HT connections with the firing order. Now I know the RF interference reduction capacitor unit is for the original Ford coil on distributor (divers helmet) arrangement and if I want to fit a UK spec canister coil I need the other radio filter type. Can anyone help me out with that?
I do have the Ford coil mount for use with the Bakelite coil as shown the the crab distributor Manual image earlier in this thread. Was this ever used during wartime? Loyd TTs didn't have radios so unless it was a statutory requirement for any kind of tracked carrier perhaps they didn't require HT noise filters.....however the only wartime loyd engine phot that I have does show one fitted on an engine with the coil on distributor setup.

Ps. The water pumps are fitted without gaskets just to mask the mating faces during the paint spray. They are already on the bench to have the pulleys pressed on.
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Last edited by ajmac; 23-06-13 at 23:34.
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  #8  
Old 24-06-13, 01:33
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Alistair, Chillwell 63/63 (U.C book)shows the Lucas distributor with in line H.T. supressors about 2 inches from the cap.
BTW. The same book identifies different coloured leads;
Red 1+5
blue 2+7
green 3+8
yellow 4+6
The coil and filter box are together mounted on a bracket bolted to the front of the LH cylinder head.
Having read this far I now see that all the above, applies to British (Lucas) set up
The Divers helmet type is wire differently;
red 1+5
blue 2+6
green 3+7
yellow 4+8
These distributors also have the in line suppressors under the rubber boots.

These ht leads have a braided outer that is varnished.
At the time of printing (jan 43) the Crab dizzy hadn't made its way across the Atlantic and into print.

BTW. I am looking for rotors for the lucas dizzy.
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  #9  
Old 24-06-13, 10:54
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Lynn,
You can buy the coloured HT lead sets from the US, but I can't stretch to that so I am going down the all black braided route sourced in England. I have gone for right angle plug connectors with built in supressors it should look period if not correct in colour.

This is a wartime Loyd photo showing a Canadian spec ( I say that because I think I can make out a 'C' at the start of the part number on the head and it doesn't have a Ford USA carburetor) 24 stud with divers helmet distributor.


Thinking about it, Windsor Carriers were very late (1944) could someone look up the engine ignition section, perhaps that will cover a Carrier spec Flathead with Crab distributor? I have already been through the T16 manual and it only shows the original Ford 'Divers Helmet' version.
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Last edited by ajmac; 24-06-13 at 11:14.
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  #10  
Old 24-06-13, 11:32
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Alistair, I think a truck book will do it.
BTW, If your going by the head, it says USA under the centre head stud.
Thats a British Solex carb.
Here in NZ we can buy the normal plastic, copper cored wire with the variously coloured braid on it, but as you say, quite expensive.
I see the bracket for the filter is drilled to fit the 21 and 24 stud motors.
Thats a nice informative picture. on that note, how do you post such big pictures?
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Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.II. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
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So many questions....
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  #11  
Old 24-06-13, 11:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Eades View Post
it says USA under the centre head stud
I have never got to the bottom of that....the heads on mine have a canadian part number cast into them AND 'Ford USA', as the Americans would say...go figure.
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  #12  
Old 24-06-13, 19:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmac View Post
Thinking about it, Windsor Carriers were very late (1944) could someone look up the engine ignition section, perhaps that will cover a Carrier spec Flathead with Crab distributor? I have already been through the T16 manual and it only shows the original Ford 'Divers Helmet' version.
Hi Alastair,
The Windsor's dizzy is contained in a box and the HT leads are metal braided with no conduits used. So of no help to you.

regards, Richard
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  #13  
Old 24-06-13, 22:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Farrant View Post
Hi Alastair,
The Windsor's dizzy is contained in a box and the HT leads are metal braided with no conduits used. So of no help to you.

regards, Richard
well then.... Bugg*r....
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  #14  
Old 25-06-13, 04:29
David Dunlop David Dunlop is online now
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Hi Alastair.

Just a thought on Ford engine manufacturing. It might be a case that Ford's engine plant in Canada was maxed out. With all their commitments for CMP's, various AFV's, etc, they may have had to call in an engine plant from Ford's American operations to fabricate engine parts or entire assemblies. These parts would then likely bear the required Canadian part numbers, but would have had Made in USA markings as well. Their V8 was a very popular engine and I believe there was even a marine version of it commercially available prior to the war.

David
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Old 25-06-13, 08:07
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Alastair, Did i read in one of your posts tht military crab distributor bodies, were made of steel, and not aluminium?
Why the difference?
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Last edited by Lynn Eades; 25-06-13 at 15:55.
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  #16  
Old 25-06-13, 11:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Eades View Post
Crab distributor bodies, were made of steel, and not aluminium?
Why the difference?
I'm not 100% sure Lynn but I have always presumed that Aluminium was required for aircraft manufacture during wartime. The last Ford cars built before Ford terminated normal production to concentrate on 'war work' in 1942 I believe had Aluminium bodied Crab distributors, the 59A which was introduced as soon as the war was over switched back to Aluminium bodies.
Talking to the Flathead Hot Rod guys in the US they had never seen a cast iron Crab body; this fits in well as virtually all Flathead manufacture in wartime went overseas.

The other option of course.....Ford Canada tooled up for Cast Iron Crab bodies while Ford USA stayed with Aluminium.


Original Loyd Cast Iron Crab Distributor body.


Cast Iron Crab I found in the UK to rebuild.
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Last edited by ajmac; 25-06-13 at 12:07.
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  #17  
Old 25-06-13, 13:20
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Hi Alastair. Nice Loyd. The generator tray is an odd one. It looks like it takes a fairly small genny. I have not seen your one before. I have the 90 amp genny, (that has the little brackets that go from the housing to the manifold) it looks too big to go on that bracket.
I Bought this dizzy about 5 minutes before you posted. Hopefully it's innards are all there.
I must say the Windsor set up looks complicated. Glad I'm not looking for those bits.
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271722358.jpg  
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Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.II. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....

Last edited by Lynn Eades; 25-06-13 at 15:54.
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  #18  
Old 25-06-13, 14:38
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Looks like a good buy, it appears to be missing the timing adjustment locking screw which is not a big deal to replace. The cap locking clips are made repro in the US by macs, that's where I sourced mine from, along with a rotorarm and cap.
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  #19  
Old 01-08-13, 07:06
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Adding more images to help.
The first image shows the two "cross over the motor" H.T. leads at the front (artist's priority was a pretty drawing) Lead no's "2" and "5" have to cross (the top of the motor)from one side to the other with the Crab distributor.
Image two is the firing order and cylinder lay out from a British Ford head casting.
The last image shows the neater wiring layout of the early (football, divers helmet) distributor. (note the info on which is left and right, and how it is arrived at)
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Flathead_Distrbtr-wiring-1932-41.jpg  
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Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....

Last edited by Lynn Eades; 01-08-13 at 07:23.
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