GAZ- AA - rear canvas hood frame

Larry Hayward · #1 26-12-05, 00:30

Has anyone got a photo of a GAZ-AA with the canvas hood frame in place but without the canvas in place? I would like to see how the frames were located and whether these frames consisted of just four hoops.

Also when did a GAZ- AA become a GAZ-MM? Was there an intermediate stage when a truck could be called a late model GAZ-AA, say with flat mudguards but then be called a GAZ-MM with a wooden cab and very basic fittings?

Larry Hayward · #2 26-12-05, 01:01

Is this a 'late model GAZ-AA' or a GAZ-MM?

Larry Hayward · #3 26-12-05, 01:14

A knocked out GAZ-AA but what's that vehicle in the background?

Bill Murray · #4 26-12-05, 01:16

Evening Larry:

It is late Christmas Day and I have had a bit of the bubbly, but, the square fendered one is a "late war" model and I cannot remember the exact model number just now.

In the last photo, I will hazard a guess that the vehicle in the far background may be an Austro Daimler ADAZ

I will try to revert tomorrow if I come up with anything more.
Bill

Larry Hayward · #5 26-12-05, 01:18

Red Army transport abandoned in the face of the German advance. Despite the wet weather it looks like the front mudguards are semi-gloss black, which I have seen on other vehicles.

Larry Hayward · #6 26-12-05, 01:21

HI Bill,

I thought the vehicle in the back ground was a fully tracked prime mover like the STZ? What's a ADAZ - is it a six wheeled truck?

Larry Hayward · #7 26-12-05, 01:24

Another photo of a GAZ- AA in German service. Who can identify the unit marking?

cliff · #8 26-12-05, 01:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Larry Hayward
Is this a 'late model GAZ-AA' or a GAZ-MM?

Late war Gaz AA

cheers
Cliff

Larry Hayward · #9 26-12-05, 01:50

So Cliff what was the major difference between a late AA and a MM, as Bart's books suggest that the secon photo I posted is a GAZ-MM?

Bill Murray · #10 26-12-05, 02:35

OK, Guys, it is now 2100 hours on Christmas Day and all of my children and grandchildren have gone home (finally).

Larry, I stand corrected, the vehicle in the background is indeed a fully tracked vehicle and is some sort of Russian cargo tractor which I will not even try to ID tonight.

I am sure that Cliff and I can do a chronicle on the various GAZ/Ford vehicles in the clearer light of day tomorrow or next.

Now that Christmas Day is almost over for me and certainly is for those of you in Europe and the Southern Hemisphere, may I wish all of you a HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!

Bill

cliff · #11 26-12-05, 07:17

According to Bart's 'The observers Fighting Vehicles directory WW2' revised addition he says for USSR trucks....

Makes and models...

GAZ-AA 1932-38 (1.5 ton 4X2)
GAZ-MM * 1938-48 (1.5 ton 4X2)

* = Based on GAZ-AA but more powerful M-1 engine (50bhp @ 2800rpm v's 40bhp @ 2200rpm)

It also says that other truck models in some cases only differed with the engine size other then that they were basicly the same vehicle.

Also in General data it says....

'Large scale production however started in 1932 with the GAZ-AA which was the Russian built American Ford Model AA truck of 1930.It was in production in modified form (GAZ-MM) and in many variations until after the war.'

So that we can be correct could you please open the bonnet (hood to you Americans) and tell us what sized engine is in the pictured truck? (LOL

)

I think we are both right but I have always known that pictured truck as the late war GAZ-AA

Hope this helps
Cheers
Cliff

PS> who can really tell for sure exactly when stocks of the smaller engine really did run out.

Larry Hayward · #12 26-12-05, 13:15

Has anyone got a photo of this vehicle with the canvas tilt cover off, showing the the hoops?

cliff · #13 26-12-05, 13:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Larry Hayward
Has anyone got a photo of this vehicle with the canvas tilt cover off, showing the the hoops?

sorry Larry I have photos of the truck with both hoops and tilt off but none showing the hoops.

cheers
Cliff

Bill Murray · #14 26-12-05, 13:26

Larry:
Starting in June 2005, Military Machines International did a multipart history of GAZ. I am missing the first three installments but I remember the A, AA and AAA were well covered in one of the first three. They have a website, www.militarymachinesintl.com where you can order back issues or just contact them or perhaps the author of the series.

I have to work only two days this week and then multiple days off so I will try to sort through my books/photos for a shot without the tilt up.
Bill

Larry Hayward · #15 29-12-05, 22:55

Bill,

I have found my copy of MMI for June 2005 and it only has a couple of photos (see attached) of a GAZ-AA in it at an exhibition in Russia. But I see in the back of that issue that GAZ trucks were to be covered from July. But what's strange is I look for this Mag each month and must have seen these articles! So perhaps they showed very little of the GAZ-AA? Can anyone check theirs?

NB - Although the green would have surely been matt, the gloss black mudguards in the photo do appear in some shots of these vehicles in use with the Russian Army c 1941! It is strange how the 'truth' can sometimes spoil the look of a vehicle especially in model form.

Larry (Night Owl)

Larry Hayward · #16 01-01-06, 20:27

I think I will have to give up on trying to find out how the tilt hoops looked and whether there were any tubes that ran front to rear, the length of the tilt.

So I will change this thread to 'Post all your GAZ-AA photos here' -especially those vehicles in service with any army!

This one is seen entering the outskirts of Berlin in 1945. Note the added bits to form a rear mudguard.

Bill Murray · #17 01-01-06, 21:44

Here are a few to start with.
Bill

Bill Murray · #18 01-01-06, 21:46

2

Bill Murray · #19 01-01-06, 21:48

3.

Bill Murray · #20 01-01-06, 21:50

4.
Sorry for the graphic content on some of these, I do not know how to edit out the bodies.
Bill

Larry Hayward · #21 02-01-06, 00:21

Thanks Bill.

As for the bodies, it's history we are dealing with here, so no one can do much about it now - but I do feel the same way as you. Those Russian soldiers could still be alive today, if Stalin hadn't got them later!

Over to you Cliff!

#22 02-01-06, 16:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Larry Hayward
Another photo of a GAZ- AA in German service. Who can identify the unit marking?

Luftwaffe - law unto themselves when it comes to markings!!

R.

Kuno · #23 14-07-06, 13:30

Silly question: Which FORD-Model is the equivalent to the GAZ AA?

My background is modelling....would like to build one of the early cars of those guys who travelled the desert before WW2...

cliff · #24 14-07-06, 22:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Kuno
Silly question: Which FORD-Model is the equivalent to the GAZ AA?

It is a silly question as the answer you seek is in the posts above.

American Ford Model AA truck of 1930

cheers
Cliff

Kuno · #25 15-07-06, 15:13

Hmmm; Cliff; maybe the question was not that silly but only not clearly formulated:

I had planne to build a 1:35 model of the FORD AA as it has been used by the early desert explorers and mainly the SDF then.

As you know, the 1:35 market is not really overloaded with FORDs, CHEVROLETs, CMPs etc....

Now I found the manufacturer ZVEZDA which offers a GAZ AA truck. I am aware that somehow this must be a copy of the FORD AA...

...but very often, there are details which are differenet although. Ok, I am not asking if they used exactly the same type of door-handles or ignition sparks. But I want to avoid to spend a lot of money & efforts only to hear afterwards: "looks nice in principal but the cabin is the wrong one!". Things like this...

And I thought it would be best to ask in this forum - because you are the masters of the subject

Bill Murray · #26 15-07-06, 16:18

Kuno:
The Zvezda kit is quite OK, I sell them in my shop.
You can try www.rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com for a lot of info on Russian trucks including the AA Gaz. Also Google GazAA and you will find a lot of images plus links to other Russian vehicle sites, Google both the net and images.
I am at a HobbyTown convention and 2,500 km away from my reference material but I will be home Monday night and try to post some more info then.
Bill

Larry Hayward · #27 08-12-06, 00:00

Bill,

With regard to the 1/35 scale Russian kits of the GAZ-AA and GAZ-AAA do you by chance stock Hussar Products HSR 35031 resin wheel sets for the vehicles and the BA-10 etc?

The Hussar resin wheels look to be very well done - as the attached photo of the web shows and are far better than the black plastic tyres in the kits, which over the years will react with the plastic in the wheel.

NB - the wheels on the GAZ-AA in the photo may be from ARMO. Do you stock these as well?

Jan Mostek · #28 11-12-06, 14:33

To Kuno and other scale modelers who like Ford/GAZ AA trucks.

The GAZ AA was almost identical with the latest Ford AA (the first series of Ford AA had different bonnet, radiator shell, mudguards and cab and also the rear axle). The GAZ-AA is sometimes considered as a copy of American Ford, like many other Russian products, but in this particular case it is not truth, there was a regular license agreement between Ford and Russian government. The first series of GAZ-AA were assembled from imported parts. Then it was not GAZ yet, but Russki Ford. The name GAZ appeared after opening the new factory in Gorkii (Gorkii Truck Plant or Gorkovskii Avtomobilnyi Zavod, or GAZ). In the early production the only difference between Ford and GAZ was in the logo on the radiator shell, then the GAZ went trough some developments, got a modified engine, simplified mudguards and cab, etc. There appeared Russian scale model drawings which show also modified exhaust muffler, the original Ford one was conical while the Russian drawings show cylindrical. But it is not clear if it was really introduced as a kind of simplification during the production or if it appeared as a locally-made spare part because the original Russian manuals show the conical Ford exhaust.

Concerning the model you mentioned, it is probably the best one in 1/35 scale. Some resin models appeared in the past, as well as Czech-made vacu forms, but all of them require much more effort to get reasonable results than the Russian one. There are however some problematic areas like too “square” bonnet (could be sand off), as well as the rear wall of the cab (should be also curved using a file). The rear cantilever springs require hangers to be modified as the ones in kit are too simplified, as well as rear axle differential housing. Also the wheels are not 100% correct. And one more note for the purists: for the British or American Ford you would need new tires as there is nice Russian lettering on the GAZ wheels.

For those who would like to have nice FORD or GAZ AA truck model: try the 1/16 scale Ford A Pick Up, ex-Bandai, now available by Hobbycraft or what, the complete bonnet, mudguards, cab, front axle and engine are identical, new chassis would be no problem and I could give you contact on the manufacturer of 1/16 scale resin wheels.

And one more note at the end. Is it possible to publish here drawings? I have made scale drawings of Ford AA as used in UK and American armed forces, but when I export it as a jpg picture the small details are not visible. If you write me I would send you a pdf copy.

happy modelling and happy searching

Jan Mostek.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #29 11-12-06, 22:37

I am speaking from memory but I believe that post-war the contents of the seized Opel AG Brandenburg Truck Plant were used in the 1948 Ural-ZIS, whereas of course the Opel Kadett 1939 Model line was sent by train with US forces' approval in 1946 to Moskva and became the post-war Model 400 etc. Wikipedia says:

Quote:

Founded in 1930 as KIM, or Communist Youth International, the plant became MZMA (Moscow Small Car Factory) in 1939........ Beginning in 1939, the factory's passenger cars were sold under the Moskwich ("Muscovite") brand. The plant was originally under the authority of GAZ - Gorkovsky Avtomobilny Zavod (Gorky Automobile Factory) founded at about the same time, but by 1939 it was operationally independent.

AZLK's role under the Soviet system was the production of small cars, which could be classified as anywhere from compact to mid-size. AvtoVAZ and IZh were also charged with producing vehicles in the same category as AZLK, while GAZ handled the large car/full-size segment.

I believe that ZIS-5 production was moved to Miass, Chelyabinsk region, and post-war the factory used items from Brandenburg although it seems no Opel Blitz copies were made. It is interestting to see that the GAZ-AA etc. carried on into the Fifties, and were the mainstay with the ZIS-5 trucks from, what three factories?

Jan Mostek · #30 12-12-06, 14:37

Let me mention a few details. The Opel AG Brandenburg Truck Plant was destroyed by American Liberators on Aug. 6. 1944. Till the end of the war the truck assembly lines were never rearranged and production of Opel Blitz run only in Daimler Benz factory under the license. Russians really captured complete assembly lines in Brandenburg, but those dedicated to the small passemger car, Opel Olympia, which, as mentioned above, was later produced as the first Moskvich car in AZLK (former KIM) factory in Moscow. It is also very likely that Russians captured a lot of other tools or machinery which might have been used in different truck plants later on, but I would not dare to say that captured Blitz assembly line was used for assembly of ZIS-5 trucks.

The KIM factory was built before the GAZ plant and produced other vehicles than Ford/GAZ, so it is not likely that KIM was originally under the authority of GAZ.

The Russian Ford story begins on 31. May 1929, when Valeriy Mieshlaiuk, Deputy Chairman of the Highest Soviet for National Economy and Peter E. Martin, vice president Ford Motor Co. signed in Dearborn, MI, an agreement about building up the new plant for production of Ford A and Ford AA vehicles, supplies of production equipment, disassembled vehicles, spare parts and technical support.

The ground works in the area of the new plant site started 13. August 1929 near by village Monastyrka by the Nizhnyi Novgorod and the cornerstone of the new plant was laid 20. May 1930. In November 1931 the main part of factory was prepared for installation of the machinery.

During building up the plant and test operation of all installed equipment the trucks should have been assembled from imported parts. According to the contract with Ford the support was spread out into the four year period starting by signing the contract. It was planned that Ford would deliver disassembled trucks or spare parts corresponding with 72 000 automobiles. It was also agreed that all vehicles having been assembled from original American parts should bear Ford logo. Ford also guaranteed that all the deliveries would be invoiced for the lowest prices, or for the prices granted to their best customers.

During the period of building up the new plant in Nizhnyi Novgorod the Russian Fords were assembled from imported parts in two smaller plants, Gudok Oktjabrja in Nizhnyi Novgorod a KIM in Moscow.

In 1932 the town Nizhnyi Novgorod was renamed as Gorkii and the new plant was named GAZ, or Gorkovkskii Avtomobilnyi Zavod and the series production of a new truck started 1. April 1932, yet made from Russian parts. The truck was given the name GAZ-AA.

To describe the all production story would require a lot of space but if you are interested I am ready to finish it.

Happy searching,
Jan Mostek

P. S. picture below shows the GAZ logo which superseded the Ford one on the first GAZ-AA series