Crusader wrecks in Maryland?

[ChaseR83]

Hey guys,

Is anybody familiar with the 4 Crusader tanks wrecks at the Patuxent Wildlife Research Refuge in Maryland?

Apparently they were there as recently as 2010, does anyone know if they are still there?

Does anybody know if they are actually accessible?

Thanks

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Hello Chase,

The surviving Panzers website lists these as "1 Crusader (A15) wreck and 3 Crusader hulls, Patuxent Wildlife Research Refuge, Laurel, MD (USA)" - see http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Cruiser_Tanks.pdf. No date or other details given.

As far as I know the Patuxent Wildlife Research Refuge is accessible - see https://www.fws.gov/refuge/patuxent-research, though I do not know if one is allowed to wander wherever you want.

I remember first seeing these photos when they were still a well-kept secret. I was told back then as these are sitting in the middle of a reserve, they cannot be removed as it would disturb the wildlife.

[Philliphastings]

What’s the mximum lift capacity of a Chinook or Skycrane ��

Cheers

Phill

[Matthew P]

I'll ask around, that's almost my backyard. Wonder if any of my mother's bird watching friends are aware of "some weird old tanks" in the woods.

Matt

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Philliphastings

What’s the mximum lift capacity of a Chinook or Skycrane ��

Cheers

Phill

A civilian Chinook or Skycrane would be expensive and have to be closely coordinated as those aircraft are in demand throughout the year for cargo or firefighting around the world.

From Imperial War Museum catalogue for a Crusader II: Weight 42560-lbs, Height 88", Length 236", Width 104".

From US Army for Chinook CH47F: Sling-load capacity: 26,000-lbs center hook, 17,000-lbs forward/aft hook, 25,000-lbs tandem.

From a commercial operator of CH54A and S-64 Skycrane helicopters: the aircraft is capable of lifting payloads approaching 20,000-lbs.

So, no. Not intact. But possible disassembled. In my unsophisticated way, I would remove the surrounding trees to a radius of 25m, rig slings under the hull between the roadwheels, secure the turret from rotating, and lift straight out to the nearest large parking area. The weight of the steel is less an issue that the suction of the mud under the hull and tracks, therefore shovels, air compressor lances, jacks and blocking would be my recovery implements.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Recovery should technically be possible. But it is a wildlife reserve, so any disturbance is a no-no. Let alone with big honking helicopters

I guess we will have to view these tanks as preserved wildlife, too. At least this has kept them from being scrapped…

[tankbarrell]

The wildlife would recover overnight. I've spent many hours on active ranges and they are infested with wildlife. Birds of all sorts, rodents, foxes, deer etc etc. They keep coming back despite the active use with vehicles and artillery.
You hear the same arguments about airstrips.
It's only humans who seem to get traumatised by a little noise or somebody else enjoying themselves.

[ChaseR83]

Thank you for the replies guys,

I should add my interest in the tanks is for research, although don't get me wrong if there was a legit way for me to recover one to restore I would.

Crusaders are pretty rare in general but especially here in the USA, IIRC the only other one is now at Ft. Benning... essentially out of reach of the public. I "may" have made a new friend recently that would be able to get me access the the Ft. Benning tank... but even then a museum is only going to allow so much.

The state of the 4 Maryland wrecks seem ideal from a research standpoint, one is upside down, one is missing at least a portion of the side armor, various hatches are open or missing.

If the only real hurdle that they are in a semi-secret location well-off the beaten path... then it sounds like I need to dig out my hiking boots for the chance to have free access to photograph, measure and sketch the inside and outside the tanks.

If anybody knows a more specific location but does not want to post it online to keep the tanks safe from scappers or scavengers... I respect that, but I'm also willing to keep the location private if you'd like to share.

Thanks guys.

[Jordan Baker]

Some more pictures found on the net.

https://www.com-central.net/index.ph...er=asc&start=0

There is also the remains of a M5 Stuart there.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Guys

Sounds like an interesting recovery project. But before any recovery effort is even considered some history research into the "Wildlife Preserve" if memory serves me correctly some of the Preserves are actually old target ranges some dating back to Civil War. They have so much unexploded munitions that they are both economically and technology impossible to clear. They became Wildlife Preserves by default people were kept out and the Wildlife moved in.

Source of the Crusaders was most probably Aberdeen Proving Grounds.

The classifications as Wildlife Preserves may also have less to do with desire to protect the wildlife but as much to do stopping the military's use of them to make things go bang.

Cheers Phil

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Adrian, Phil, I agree with you. I too have the experience that wildlife thrives on ranges - in fact, any place where man does not come often. The wildlife would not be too bothered by a couple of big tracked tractors recovering these hulks. Surely, the next day the birds would be back and any removed foliage would quickly grow back.

But some people's hobbies and jobs are all about wildlife, and they will do anything to prevent disturbance and don't care anything about a rusty tank hull. They see it as a shelter for the Scarlet Tanager or similar. Our hobby is the opposite, we would do anything to recover a rusty tank or truck, and would not see any harm in disturbing the Scarlet Tanager or Wood Thrush for a few days in the process.

I read the Patuxent Research Refuge was established by Executive Order in 1936, so I wonder if the military took in back during WW2 to make things go bang. Anyhow, a pointed out above, in this case it seems this former military area is (at least partly) a reserve, to not have to bother with the UXO. Over on the AFV Association forum this remark says it all: "He says there were five Crusaders at the research refuge, but warned that they warn you to stay on the trails & sign a waiver lest you step on some unexploded ordnance".

So Chase, I'd say get over there, sign that waiver and go find those hulks - but do tread lightly!

[Mike Cecil]

Go looking with a drone to at least locate them, perhaps, as the first step or rather, before taking a step off the beaten path? The reserve has good all-round perimeter access, so covering the whole area by drone from different locations outside the perimeter is feasible.

Mike

[ChaseR83]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

So Chase, I'd say get over there, sign that waiver and go find those hulks - but do tread lightly!

I am very much planning on making the trip if I can find more specifics of the tanks location in the preserve... as it is almost 13,000 acres of wooded land and I am half-way across the US.

From what I've read the South Tract of the preserve is off-limits, but the North and Central are open. I wonder if the South Tract is the old Ft. Meade firing range and that's why it is "closed off"?

From the link to the other website... the Preserve tells you to stay on trails and sign a waiver... but obviously people have made it to the Crusaders without blowing themselves up. In fact, I haven't found a single case of somebody blowing themselves up there.

IMO, UXO is something to take seriously, but at the same time, every range wreck that even been recovered and every "bog tank" from Eastern Europe had the same danger. I doubt they are in the middle of an abandoned mine field. At the same time I can see while they will likely never be recovered, it is one thing to sign a waiver and go take pictures... its another to expect people to assume the same risk and go in with heavy equipment to excavate them. I'm sure the reserve would catch wind of it as well and shut you down. Even if all of that went well I'm sure there is some obscure law that the US Government retains ownership of all range wrecks... image retrieving one, restoring it and then having it seized

It will probably be early next year before I can go... I want to wait for cooler weather, but I also gives me time to keep searching for archive information... I want have as much information as possible before going... Ideally I'd like to find a scan of the spare parts manual so I can take photocopies of the breakdowns out there to photograph and dimension individual parts and hull plates.

[Dave Newcomb]

11,000lbs or so, our damaged 113 personnel carriers got lifted frequently. Dave

[Andrew Rowe]

I have often wondered about lend - lease Tanks, did the US still retain ownership of these that ended up on ranges?. You could always cut it in half and lift out the pieces, and then weld back together.....just saying.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by ChaseR83

I am very much planning on making the trip if I can find more specifics of the tanks location in the preserve... as it is almost 13,000 acres of wooded land and I am half-way across the US.

From what I've read the South Tract of the preserve is off-limits, but the North and Central are open. I wonder if the South Tract is the old Ft. Meade firing range and that's why it is "closed off"?

From the link to the other website... the Preserve tells you to stay on trails and sign a waiver... but obviously people have made it to the Crusaders without blowing themselves up. In fact, I haven't found a single case of somebody blowing themselves up there.

Chase, get in touch with some of the guys on the AFV Association forum to try to get in touch with the guys who were there in person. Then use other open source intelligence like maps and satellite images. They are not a secret, so I think you should be able to narrow down the search area if not get an exact waypoint.

UXO is dangerous, but if you are aware of the dangers the risk is manageable. I would advise to bring along someone who is an expert and can point out the dangers while in the field.

Let us know how you fare!

[ChaseR83]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Chase, get in touch with some of the guys on the AFV Association forum to try to get in touch with the guys who were there in person. Then use other open source intelligence like maps and satellite images. They are not a secret, so I think you should be able to narrow down the search area if not get an exact waypoint.

UXO is dangerous, but if you are aware of the dangers the risk is manageable. I would advise to bring along someone who is an expert and can point out the dangers while in the field.

Let us know how you fare!

Well, I've got a small update.

All I can say... research is never easy.

The AFV Association forum has been sitting on my new member registration for 2 weeks with no reply. Site traffic is very low over there and I'm not sure it is even really being monitored anymore.

I reached out to the gentleman who runs The Shaddock website, he didn't have any additional information but was able to the give me the email address of the original poster on the AFV forum. I emailed him... no reply.

Out of shear dumb luck I saw a post on Facebook that mentioned the tanks, I sent the poster a message and he was able to give me the exact location... circa 1973...

Problem is.... Ft. Meade in 1973 is far different than Ft. Meade from today. I haven't found a single vintage, freely available map that shows the target range areas... other than I know at least a portion of the old ranges are in the Northern Tract of the Reserve... still a large area to wander.

In 1973 you could just walk right up to them... I don't know if that is possible today. The NSA has a heavy presence at Ft. Meade and I've read several stories of portions of the Northern Tract being restricted... despite no longer being on the base. It would be shame to fly halfway across the country to be foiled by a fence topped with razor-wire...

I really need to find a local resident who is familiar with the area...

[David Dunlop]

Have you ever worked with the freeware computer program ‘Google Earth’? It came out in 2001 and is still available, but not very popular anymore as people use ‘Google Maps’ because it is much simpler.

Google Earth is based on satellite imagery and you can search freehand for a location, or type in several civil or military grid coordinates and the program with take you directly overhead of that spot on the planet and you can zoom down to take a closer look. As you navigate, the grid coordinates are displayed in real time and the date of the current imagery in use is also available. So, if you are looking down over the exact spot you have coordinates for and see nothing, check the image dates. If the image is newer than the date of the last known photos you have, the tanks are gone.

It will save you a lot of time and money worrying about them.


David

[David Herbert]

Re Google Earth, you can also see older satellite and also even older aerial photographs of many locations, often going back to WW2 if the location was of interest in the past.

David

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Have you ever worked with the freeware computer program ‘Google Earth’? It came out in 2001 and is still available, but not very popular anymore as people use ‘Google Maps’ because it is much simpler.

I use Google Earth Pro at work, and it has better resolution than consumer Google Earth.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

FWIW, when this thread began I decided to try looking at the area with Google Maps to see if I could find the wrecks. No luck, else I would have posted about it, but then, I didn’t spend overly much time on it. The main problem with it is too many green trees that obscure the wrecks from at least casual viewing. Maybe if you systematically go through at maximum zoom, you might find them, though?

[Tim Bell]

Originally Posted by ChaseR83

I haven't found a single vintage, freely available map that shows the target range areas... other than I know at least a portion of the old ranges are in the Northern Tract of the Reserve... still a large area to wander..

Try here for ww2 maps of the area...

https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons..._31680_geo.jpg

Note the "AT Range" marked... I assume... Anti-Tank Range.



https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons..._31680_geo.jpg

https://www.oldmapsonline.org/en/Fort_George_G._Meade

There may well be others... if any help... no idea.

Probably more historical stuff will pop up if you search for "Fort Meade Military Reservation" rather than the Patuxent Reserve the area now appears to be known by.

Tim

[Tim Bell]

Merging the two maps together... I would suspect the vehicles likely be located inside the "Military Reservation" if not somewhere adjacent to the AT Range.



Tim

[Tim Bell]

Assuming these were hard targets, maybe they are somewhere up to 1 mile south of the AT range firing point?



Of course... they could be anywhere else, and were not there as targets.

Tim

[ChaseR83]

Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke

FWIW, when this thread began I decided to try looking at the area with Google Maps to see if I could find the wrecks. No luck, else I would have posted about it, but then, I didn’t spend overly much time on it. The main problem with it is too many green trees that obscure the wrecks from at least casual viewing. Maybe if you systematically go through at maximum zoom, you might find them, though?

Yes Google Earth is one of the first places I looked... and like you said it's just acres of trees.

The person I spoke to that saw them in 1973 gave a couple of bits of info... the area was overgrown even in 1973... and they aren't far from a road... he and a friend actually spotted them while out riding. He just doesn't remember the name of the road.

He also said he asked various hunters in the area over the years, and they all say they are still there.

[Jordan Baker]

What’s the thought on this being two of the Crusaders?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Jordan Baker

What’s the thought on this being two of the Crusaders?

Nice spotto, could very well be them. I'm sure Terry "I use Google Earth Pro at work" can do better, though

[Ed Storey]

That was some amazing sleuthing! Those Crusader wrecks remind me of the Valentines that had been used as post-war hard targets and could, some 40 years ago, be found on the Petawawa, Ontario training area.

Armour casualties from the desert war in North Africa were shipped to North America as ballast to be then scrapped. Perhaps that is where the Crusaders had originally came from before being used as Fort Meade hard targets?

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke

FWIW, when this thread began I decided to try looking at the area with Google Maps to see if I could find the wrecks. No luck, else I would have posted about it, but then, I didn’t spend overly much time on it. The main problem with it is too many green trees that obscure the wrecks from at least casual viewing. Maybe if you systematically go through at maximum zoom, you might find them, though?

Most online map imagery has a slider bar on one corner to change between image dates. Try looking at another time of year.

[ChaseR83]

Originally Posted by Jordan Baker

What’s the thought on this being two of the Crusaders?

That is certainly interesting....