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  #1  
Old 19-03-21, 19:40
Perry Kitson Perry Kitson is offline
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Default Help with slings

I have three of these slings, about 32" long, C broad arrow marked. Not sure if they are for Sten, seem too short.
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  #2  
Old 19-03-21, 19:46
rob love rob love is offline
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Those were the first pattern sten sling, which were indeed quite short and not adjustable.
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  #3  
Old 19-03-21, 21:03
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Sten Slings

I believe that they WERE Sten slings, but at some point have been shortened. One give-away is the lack of any manufacture's stamp or date which was on the piece which has been chopped off. I am hopeful that I will stumble upon an Ordnance Instruction to shorten Sten slings for some other purpose.

Of course the Vocabulary of Ordnance Stores could also reveal if there was more than one Mark or Pattern of Sten Sling.

ED

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  #4  
Old 19-03-21, 21:44
rob love rob love is offline
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You may be right Ed. I note that I have only ever seen these short(ened) slings Canadian marked. I have maybe 20 or so downstairs. I'll have a look and see if there are makers marks on any of them, but they do seem to be consistent with the C/l\ in that visible location. I'll also check my Cdn sten parts manual and see if it covers any sling variations.
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  #5  
Old 19-03-21, 22:14
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Shortened Slings

There is also a good chance that these slings were manufactured to be attached as a carrying handle to some other piece of webbing and were therefore not marked with a manufacturer/date stamp.
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  #6  
Old 19-03-21, 22:45
Colin Alford Colin Alford is offline
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An interesting discussion!

The August 1942, Carbines, Machine, Sten, 9mm, Mks I, II & III, Illustrated Identification List can be found here: https://stephentaylorhistorian.files...t_1942_150.pdf

Info regarding slings can be found on pages 22 and 23. The standard rifle sling was used for Mk I Sten, whereas Mks II and III used “BE 8574, Slings, Carbine, Machine, Sten, 9mm.” The illustration notes that the overall length of this sling is
36” and it appears to be non-adjustable (note, I can’t seem to take a screenshot of the PDF, but I have attached the illustration that I found at a different source).

The 1944, Parts list for Carbine, Machine, Sten, 9mm, Mk V, can be found here:

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/19...n_MkV_1944.pdf

Info regarding the sling can be found on pages 18 and 19. This seemingly longer and adjustable sling is known as “BE 8504, Sling, Carbine, Machine, Sten, 9mm, Mk II”

My interpretation is that there were two Sten slings.

Perry, when you measured the 32” was this the overall length including the metal fittings, or just the webbing? Are these Canadian slings actually shorter than the 36” total length noted in the 1942 British ID List?

For someone with access to an adjustable sling: What is the total extended length?

The second image I have attached of the adjustable sling with stores tag was found at the LWD Parts website: https://www.lwdparts.com/product/ste...nos-war-dated/


Regards,
Colin
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  #7  
Old 19-03-21, 23:37
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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thank you Stefan
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  #8  
Old 20-03-21, 03:02
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Sten Slings

You guys were fast on posting the Sten sling information; while digging about I found this reference to the Mk II (113) and Mk III (114) Sten Slings on page 9 in my copy of CW-2 Canadian Ordnance Catalogue - Parts Identification List - Carbine, Machine, Sten, 9mm, Cdn Mk 2-1 - 1953.

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  #9  
Old 20-03-21, 03:17
rob love rob love is offline
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I just measured one that I had sitting on the desk, and it comes in at 31".
The Cdn manual lists two sten slings. Drawing DD(E)3331 (NSN 1005-21-103-8405)is for the mk2 sten, and drawing DD(E)659/G/4 *NSN 1005-21-103-8404) is for the mk3 sten. The illustrations for both slings show it as being adjustable, however it shows more of a dog clip on both ends of the mk3 sling as compared to the pig tail and loop of the traditional sling. (Ed beat me to posting the photos)



The only sten variation that I can think of that is shorter is the CDN Mk2/1 which is the mk2 fitted with the pistol grip for airborne use, but at the end of the day the sling will start at the part of the butt closest to the endcap, so the working length of the sling really does not change. And if these shorter straps were for that version, I would think they would be listed as such in my 1959 dated manual.



I'll be reaching for my copy of the "Sten Machine Carbine" by Laidler in the next few minutes to see if it sheds any light on these.

Last edited by rob love; 20-03-21 at 17:19.
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  #10  
Old 20-03-21, 03:36
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Storey View Post
You guys were fast on posting the Sten sling information; while digging about I found this reference to the Mk II (113) and Mk III (114) Sten Slings on page 9 in my copy of CW-2 Canadian Ordnance Catalogue - Parts Identification List - Carbine, Machine, Sten, 9mm, Cdn Mk 2-1 - 1953.

Attachment 120946
Rob,

This was from the Parts Identification List for the Sten Cdn Mk 2-1 and it only shows the Mk II and Mk III Sling.

ED
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  #11  
Old 20-03-21, 05:03
Colin Alford Colin Alford is offline
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Gents,

It seems that my previous link to the Karkee Web site is not working well.

The 1944 Mk V Sten parts list can be found near the bottom of this page:

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/19...net_frogs.html

There are also images from a British 1951 Mk V Sten parts list. Those images include the nomenclature for the MkII and MK III Slings, which show the VAOS numbers and drawing numbers (the drawing numbers match those listed above by Rob).

My current thoughts are that the slings in question (short and non-adjustable) are the first pattern of Sten sling (VAOS B3 BE 8574). The fact that the surviving examples are a few inches shorter than the 36” described in the British 1942 Parts ID list could have been due to a Canadian production error. There might have been a mistake where the webbing was cut to the “finished length”, and then when it was folded and riveted, it was too short. It seems that this style of sling in unissued condition, was (at least in the past) relatively plentiful on this side of the pond. Maybe it was recognized that they were too short and were purposefully not issued (ideally this would have been caught prior to receiving an acceptance stamp).

I looked through some of the CMHQ files on Sten guns, but they don’t include much correspondence regarding Canadian production (other than quantities and when to expect shipments). There were a number of documents regarding how motorcyclists should carry Stens. The attached document states “The provision of a lengthened sling for the Sten was approved in September 1942 and is now standard”.
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  #12  
Old 20-03-21, 13:22
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Sten Slings

Colin, what Sten sling quantities were quoted in the documents? The question I have is why do these shortened 'slings' lack a manufacturer/date stamp; as was this stamp not added at the end of the production process? I cannot think of many pieces which only have a 'C Broad Arrow' and as it is, these were parts for other major assemblies.
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  #13  
Old 20-03-21, 17:12
Perry Kitson Perry Kitson is offline
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Colin,

32" including the fittings. Not adjustable.
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  #14  
Old 20-03-21, 17:21
rob love rob love is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Alford View Post
Gents,

It seems that this style of sling in unissued condition, was (at least in the past) relatively plentiful on this side of the pond. Maybe it was recognized that they were too short and were purposefully not issued (ideally this would have been caught prior to receiving an acceptance stamp).
Most of the ones I have are used and dirty. When I get to the gun room next I'll see if there are any makers marks.
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  #15  
Old 20-03-21, 17:24
rob love rob love is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Storey View Post
I believe that they WERE Sten slings, but at some point have been shortened. One give-away is the lack of any manufacture's stamp or date which was on the piece which has been chopped off. I am hopeful that I will stumble upon an Ordnance Instruction to shorten Sten slings for some other purpose.

Of course the Vocabulary of Ordnance Stores could also reveal if there was more than one Mark or Pattern of Sten Sling.

ED

Attachment 120928
One has to wonder why they would alter the end that was already riveted. Why not just cut off the adjustable end and rivet it there? It doesn't make sense at this point.
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  #16  
Old 20-03-21, 20:43
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Sten Slings

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob love View Post
One has to wonder why they would alter the end that was already riveted. Why not just cut off the adjustable end and rivet it there? It doesn't make sense at this point.
I know, it is very strange. This thread has mapped out to some degree the various slings associated with the Sten Machine Carbine using primary source documents. We all know what a Rifle Sling is and we have seen a couple of photographs of the Mk II, or 2 depending on when it was catalogued; but who has ever seen a Mk III sling? And what about the BE 8574 sling, is this the item we have all been discussing?

I have one of these weird slings in my collection that I have held onto just in case I see of photo of one in use or find a document identifying it.
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  #17  
Old 20-03-21, 21:02
rob love rob love is offline
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I have seen sterling slings in the 37 pattern colour with the dog clips on one end. I wonder if they are related? https://www.ima-usa.com/products/ori...nt=25651437317


And while I am trolling for other sten sling photos on the internet I found this photo ID'd as a stenmk2 mk1 sling. It is of fixed length. : https://dbgmilitaria.co.uk/shop/inde...oducts_id=5921

Last edited by rob love; 21-03-21 at 04:37.
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  #18  
Old 20-03-21, 21:09
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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Default original source documents

There are notes in Laider indicating B3/BE8504 adjustable STEN slings measuring 26”-51” long.

You asked about the slings for the MK-III... B3/CR 12A: although no barrel nut with their assorted hole patterns as found on Mk-II guns, the standard ring style hook can pass through the vent holes in the bottom of the MK-III casing on the earlier, unmodified receiver. The modification to the MK-III allows the hook to pass through holes placed in the top rib.

Looking at period images during 1944-1945 of Canadian troops armed with STEN M/C ‘s in NWE, I am surprised at the number of MK-III models observed. I am intentionally excluding any comment on the MK5 model.
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  #19  
Old 21-03-21, 04:21
Colin Alford Colin Alford is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Storey View Post
Colin, what Sten sling quantities were quoted in the documents? The question I have is why do these shortened 'slings' lack a manufacturer/date stamp; as was this stamp not added at the end of the production process? I cannot think of many pieces which only have a 'C Broad Arrow' and as it is, these were parts for other major assemblies.
Ed,

The quantities I mentioned were monthly quantities of Canadian produced Stens that were being shipped, not sling quantities.

I just captured these images of a couple of slings that had been packed in a box for approx 25 years. A 1942 Z.L.&T non-adjustable, and a 1944 British (hard to read the maker) adjustable.
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  #20  
Old 21-03-21, 04:43
rob love rob love is offline
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Note that the shortened Cdn slings have a D ring on the end where the Adjustable ones have an oval ring. Perhaps this is the reason they cut off the stitched portion at that end in order to replace it with a D ring.
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  #21  
Old 21-03-21, 04:51
Bruce Parker (RIP) Bruce Parker (RIP) is offline
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Like, at some point you just have to attach them to Stens and see if they ft.
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  #22  
Old 21-03-21, 05:09
Colin Alford Colin Alford is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob love View Post
Note that the shortened Cdn slings have a D ring on the end where the Adjustable ones have an oval ring. Perhaps this is the reason they cut off the stitched portion at that end in order to replace it with a D ring.
Rob,

My interpretation is that these short slings are indeed the first type “BE 8574”, and that the Canadian examples that we are discussing are as originally produced (not shortened).

My interpretation is that the D ring is correct for the first type slings, but this was changed to an oval ring for the Mk II slings.

Every image that I have found of a non-adjustable sling (both British, and Canadian) show a D ring, whereas the adjustable slings (both British, and Canadian) have the oval rings.

See these links for non-adjustable slings with D-rings:
Scroll down past the manuals, a Z.L.&T Ltd (no apparent date), and a closeup on a Z.L.&T Ltd 1942:
http://www.machinegunboards.com/foru...howtopic=10754

No apparent makers mark (but likely British due to stitched rather than riveted construction):
https://www.ima-usa.com/products/ori...18801712005189

A British M.E. Co. 1942:
https://dbgmilitaria.co.uk/shop/inde...oducts_id=5921

Scroll down to post number 63, another Z.L.&T. Ltd 1942:
https://www.cdnmilitarycollectors.co...-with-pictures

A British M.E. Co. (Unknown date):
https://militaria.co.uk/product/brit...justable-type/

The other piece of evidence is the illustration in the 1942 parts list which shows a D-ring.
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Last edited by Colin Alford; 21-03-21 at 06:36. Reason: Added another link
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  #23  
Old 21-03-21, 13:18
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Sten Slings

The evidence has me convinced - the web sling in question is a BE 8574 Mk I Sten Sling!
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  #24  
Old 21-03-21, 15:27
rob love rob love is offline
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Well presented Colin. You have changed Ed's mind...not an easy thing to do. And I can continue to enjoy my small pile of these as sten slings.
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