Question for Rob Love......

[Bob Carriere]

Tie Rod Ends........ made of "unobtenium"


.....our in house parts guru who as connections with current army trucks....

Hi Rob

Looking for suitable tie rod ends for our CMPs...... hopefully something that fits the existing rod thread without expensive machining and strong enough for an over built CMP.....

I got some M9XX or M8XX series 5ton truck: NSN 2530-00-303-4923 LH
and......M9XX or M8XX series 5ton truck: NSN 2530-00-211-6111 RH

do we ever use anything like that in Canada...... apparently Eastern Surplus as them...... from the web pictures they look very similar...but are they the "same"????

I am going to take one tie rod part, some model on early CMP were rebuildable....... take pictures and measure the taper, thread size etc.

Meanwhile I will be blowing some of the forecasted 30 cm. of wet heavy white s**t overnight.

Anybody else crossed that "unobtanium" tie rod bridge please chime in....

Hoping that the results my be helpful to other shaky CMP owners!!!

Bob C.
PS Here are photos of my tie rod end and one that I bought out of curiosity listed as fitting a GMC 1947 to 54 HD truck....... looks like a midget and now will be a nice paper weight.......

[rob love]

Canada did use the M800 series of 5 ton, but without even looking at them I can just about guarantee that the 5 ton tie rod ends will be obscenely large. The 5 tons were just a M35 2-1.2 ton on steroids.



I can take a quick look today at work and compare the tie rods on our 5 ton wrecker (M-62) with the tie rods on some of the CMPs.



I have, in the past, also rebuilt a rod end by gutting a similar tie rod and moving all the internal components to the worn tie rod. The work was sound, but did require a couple of spot welds to hold the bottom washer onto the tie rod to close it all up. But this was in a wartime situation....not sure I would do it as a day to day repair.

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Rob

Got a prompt reply from Eastern Surplus...... inventory all packed away so no time to take thread measurements...... and if they ever fit they are expensive!!!

Can the NATO numbers be traced to specs....as in taper measurement, thread tpi and diameter...?

Going to hunt at Moog parts manufacture but need to take one apart for exact measurements.

But the snow comes first.

Bob C.

[rob love]

2530-00-211-6111 (this and the other number you listed were used on the old gas 5 tons (M39, M40, M62 etc) from the 50s as well).

tapered bearing surface major diameter 1.249 inches minimum and 1.251 inches maximum

taper length 1.813 inches nominal

rod connecting end thread location internal
rod connecting end thread size 1-1/2 -12
rod connecting end thread series designator unf
rod connecting end thread direction right-hand
rod connecting end thread length 3.813 inches nominal
locking clamp type integral

When I check a nearby CMP I get a tie rod thread of 1-1/4, a maxh shank dia of 1" and a length of 1.5" for the shank length. Not a match.

I wonder if the front tie rods are more a marmon Herrington or Timken axle thing, since those were the designers of the four wheel drive axles used.
Another good place to check is find someone who will loan you a merritor catalogue. They have lots of photos and measurements.

[Robert Bergeron]

I am looking for tie rod ends also . So i will be following this thread closely.

[rob love]

I had a quick look at some merritor ends and here is an example. Unfortunately it does not give the sizes: https://www.pillarsurplus.com/ROCKWE...-p/l010194.htm

[Bob Carriere]

Thanks Rob.....

Tomorrow is measurement day in the barn....

[rob love]

I had a look at the tie rod ends for the m-37 dodge as it is a similar design and readily available. Unfortunately the threads are only 1"unf.

[maple_leaf_eh]

As a slightly distracting attempt at humour, my FB feed seems to be cluttered with videos of "mechanics" from Karachi and India doing miracle repairs from scrapped oil tanker steel, crude machine tools and lots of arc welding rod splutter. Yeah, I trust their 1/2 diameter bolts made from a length of scrap rebar. To see these guys straighten a bent jingle truck frame, repair cracked engine blocks and rear differential cases, or rebuild 12-v batteries with square hammers, salvaged hand tools and no safety equipment makes me cringe.

But to the question, I would think both Bobs are headed towards the machine shop with CMP parts in one hand, and a UPS shipment box of M35 parts in the other. BTW, there are Canadians selling parts stripped off MLVWs. They seem to buy them by the cubic pallet load off GC Surplus.

[rob love]

M35 tie rods are not the correct design. They are your more typical tie rod with male threads coming off the ends. The CMP tie rod ends (and the 5 ton and M37s) have female threads where the clamp is built in to the tie rod housing.



It might be possible to lengthen the threads on the tie rod itself, cut the tie rod shorter, then use a pair of threaded sleeves and clamps and more traditional tie rod ends. But the rebuild of the CMP ends may well be easier once you find the correct tapered ends.

[chris vickery]

I find any suggestions of modifying ASME designed and proven components to be cringeworthy at best. Steering gear is the one area that I never mess with personally. If it’s questionable, it gets new parts. Understood that the issue is availability of old type complements but I’d keep looking…

[Bob Carriere]

When it comes to safety there are no compromise. Steering....brakes....rims..... tires..... I am looking for something that fits...... we all know that they did not invent CMPs...... they relied on engineering of the day with parts on the shelf in most situation...... they may have been used prior to 1939 (design was in 37/38) or used post war for some other large garbage or cement mixer trucks...... the problem is which one...... not ready to give up yet......

I spent hours looking up in my Hollander Parts interchange manual 16th Edition 1949-50 and out of 504 pages only one page pertains to tie rod ends for Grahams, Larabee, studebaker, etc but nothing for Chev Military....... although parts for the Russian jeeps are listed.

I took extensive measurements today to be cleaned up and posted soon.

The sad part is that there are maybe tons of spare parts in South America in old warehouses and no ones knows what they are.....

Question for Terry.... I have seen Utube footage of 303. British rifles being made from scrap by hand , the elevation rear site, bolts all hand hammered and hand filed......and they look the part......would you fire them???? or the wooden 50. cal machine gun mounted ona jeep done by a guy in the Sorel area.....all from wood panted in gun flat black and distressed....... perfect lookalike until you touch it...... now that is asking for trouble......

Stay tuned.....

[Paul Singleton]

https://www.lwdparts.com/product/end...set-lh-rh-nos/

LWd has a set in stock, it would be nice to have a modern replacement though.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

...

Question for Terry.... I have seen Utube footage of 303. British rifles being made from scrap by hand , the elevation rear site, bolts all hand hammered and hand filed......and they look the part......would you fire them???? or the wooden 50. cal machine gun mounted ona jeep done by a guy in the Sorel area.....all from wood panted in gun flat black and distressed....... perfect lookalike until you touch it...... now that is asking for trouble......

Stay tuned.....

The gunsmiths in Dharra, Pakistan are craftsmen! They know what they are doing and how to make guns that will function. In the 1980s the DCRA in Canada decided to run blackpowder cartridge rifle matches. The rules were anything in Cartridges of the World that started life as blackpowder. My father was not well off, but was an irrepressible competitor, and he could read. He showed up at the inaugural matches with a Kyber Pass-made Martini Henry chambered for .303Br and shooting cast bullets with gas checks over blackpowder. He could shoot like a hero no matter what discipline, and he cleaned up that year. The rule was subsequently amended to specifically exclude .303Br. It is known as the Edson Warner Rule amongst those who know!

[Bob Carriere]

We had a close inspection of about 4 or 5 sets of tie rods....... most of them removed from the tie rod itself and not necessarily matched pairs....... all are the ones that can be taken apart........ I did take one apart years ago but can't find it and was sightly different in the internal construction.

Anyways...one set of the better tie rod ends still wearing some OD green color, compared to all the others which have been sand blasted during their life span underneath a CMP.

So only one set had the following numbers..... 24V26 F and 2425 F ......
lettering is raised on the casting but rather faint and only after removing very hard green paint with a wire wheel could we read them...... the numbers were located on the back face just above the two holes for clamping.....

One is obviously RH and one LF...... speculation..... is the F for FORD..... we know that the same tie rods was fitted on both Chev and Ford...... and both were involved in a joint venture during the design stage....... some parts being more GM and some being clearly Fords..... how about Marmon-Herrington...? may need to visit the CWM wearing work clothes with a flashlight and my camera telephone......

Progress on searching the Hollander Interchange manual edition 1949-50 of 504 pages showed little on tie rod ends....one page focusing on Graham, Larabee, Studebakers, etc........ although they list parts for Russian -cases....

...and I a searching my photo library for the one Tie rod end that I took apart years ago........ there is a possibility that I reassembled it and is now used on my C15a.......

We do have other complete axles and rolling frames that still have the tie rods installed BUT are buried in deep snow at the moment...... might have to dig a few hole to get down underneath for a closer look..... done that before!

One positive aspect...... the female end of the T. R. measured by Rob is identical.....being 1 1/4 inch and 12 t.p.i........castled nut is 3/4 inch 16 t.p.i.

Sketch of the T.R. with dimensions ..... tomorrow......

More to follow......

[Bob Carriere]

I found them.....

Hanno can you change the top posting to include the words tie rod ends for CMP.......hoping that it will make searches easier inthe future.

I am now convinced that the tie rod pictured was cleaned and reassembled on my C15a but is different on how it is assembled and you wilsee the differentce plus I will take another on apart to confirm.

First picture is the one I am currently measuring......

STUCK ON MANAGE ATTACHMENTS

[Bob Carriere]

First picture of the one I am currently measuring.... this isthe one we are currently measuring.....look at the difference with the old one I took apart years ago,,,,,

Second picture on the right....is the old set of pictures....taken when rebuilding my C15a with an early front axle using a R-Zeppa u-joint inside the egg cup.

Tird pic. of same T/i/ seens from underneath....... the one I am measuring in the top left has a large C clip holding the base inserted cap in place....( will undo one and document)
See the arrow pointing to the large recessed cotter pin holding the screwed on bottom cap....
Fourth pic..... see the arrows pointing tothe different holes indicating some adjustment is possible.....
One the Fifth....the guts of it all....... around ball at the bottom....two side insert....the spring that hols them when inserted inside.... the small coil spring that attached tothetwo holesshown on each of the two little pillow blocks....

See the next post

[Bob Carriere]

got to do the photos first

Number 6.... see the two side pillows highly polished and they have two spring holes forthe flatcoil behind that has bent ends

Noticed the heavy base plug withthe sthreaded side forsettinga preset pressure..... and oddly....look theholeis not perfectly centred!!!!

The finished prodcut Pitcure 7 shows how it assembles.....and it istricky and greasy.... one pillow withthe central taper...then the second taper....then try putting the coil spring in the holes a three man job..

The finished product usually has a rubber flat stiff gasket to keep the grease in near the ball.... amatching light gauge steel flat washer the spring and the nut

I greased mine with Molybdenum hi-pressure Grey grease using a greasing needle attachment tomy grease gun...... it allows the grease to be pushed/squirted real deep were it is need...... cap adjustment is threaded in place at least deep enough to access the cotter pinholes and then tight enough to lock the tapered pin....back off one or two until it can be move stiffly by hand


Tomorrow may try taking the other model with the C clip at the bottom to see how they work....

Stay tuned......

....any speculation on the copper color...... my theory is that the central tapered post/ball was polished and hard chromed than lightly plated with copper as a lubricant and as a wear indicator!! ?????

[David Herbert]

The copper plating is applied during manufacture to all the finished surfaces of the ball except the actual spherical surface. This acts as a mask to enable surface chemical hardening of the spherical surface without making the stem brittle. I worked for the Foden truck company in the '70s and they were still making their own front axles in house then including the tie rod ends. I asked about the copper plating and was told the above. They used a process called Nitriding (not sure it's spelt like that).

David

[Bob Carriere]

Thanks David

that explaines the copper color and ALSO increases the possibiity that they were made here in North America....maybe by a Ford sub-company.

You said Foden truck...... another lead to follow may have totrtace who owns them now!!!

Cheers

Bob C

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

You said Foden truck...... another lead to follow may have totrtace who owns them now!!!

Cheers

Bob C

Bob,
Foden was absorbed into the Paccar group, who are based in your part of the world. The marque no longer exists.