looking for colour images of vehicles used in the desert after 1942

[RichardT10829]

anyone able to help, i got Mike starmers books but they are in black and white, there are colour swatches at the back but i cant get a feel for how it will look ? i dont want my carrier to be green, but it must be releavant to my grandads war... he was western destert / persia from 41 - late 42, he raided Scicily during Op Husky then eventually landed at salerno Italy sept 43.

most of the italy schemes are light mud with blue/black disruptive (ala Jordans and in that pattern i might add) late issue vehicles were all brown as a basic colour with a few variants having dark brown disruptive (Ala Big Mikes)

i cant use caunter as it was early desert scheme and discontinued end of 41 it was replaced with the ZI desert pink base and dark green disruptive......

i saw a Lee with sand base and brown disruptive with white and black thin borders around the brown disruptive....... love that style but cant use it as it was only used by one regiment and specifically on the "Lee".... i was thinking sand with brown disruptive (minus the lines) anyone able to throw their oar in here i really dont want a green carrier... you may ask "why worry now" but i am closer to this point than you might realise....


cheers in advance guys.


PS i have scheme books for western desert after alamein, and scicily / Italy books from May43 onwards if folk need pattern queries answered.

Richie

[cletrac (RIP)]

Here's a brown one off the IWM site. It's north Africa in January 1943.
IWM bren

[RichardT10829]

cheers this was taken in Tunisia and is the light mud with blue/black disruptive edging, described as "folliage", anyone got anymore ?

here is the light mud blu/black disruptive as used early on in Italy...

[cletrac (RIP)]

Richard,
You have to bear in mind that the base colour was desert stone or khaki in North Africa with the disruptive colour applied over there. When they went to Italy they were given the brown paint job but inside the engine house and other inaccessible places remained the initial colour. Some of the vehicles kept their Africa colours until they needed repainting in Italy. The same goes with the caunter scheme. Just because it was replaced end of 41 doesn't mean there weren't any vehicles still using it later in 42.
I kind of like that Syria/Persia scheme with desert stone and terra cotta. I wonder if they used that one on carriers too?
When you start painting your hull you just have to choose between the desert stone and khaki and can decide on the rest later.
The next truck I paint is going to have khaki base colour with the sand as disruptive since the sand colour shows oil leaks so much more on the undercarriage.

[Jordan Baker]

Richard

That small picture from the IWM is in Tunisia. Im off the mind that the carrier is painted SCC2 with the SCC1 (black) as the disruptive. That picture would have been taken in 1943. By that time carriers were being painted in the SCC2 colour.

The picture you posted is not the light mud and blue/black scheme used in Italy. Its my carrier painted for England in 1941-42 period. Its painted in KG#3 with the Black disruptive colour added as per pictures of the period. I played with the colour settings to give that image a washed out look.

Here is the original.

[RichardT10829]

hahaha well you have inadvertantly made it the colours i mentioned as the photo when printed out matches my swatches perfectly

[Jordan Baker]

strange becuase the KG#3 was matched to some original paint on parts. Just goes to show how close a lot of the original colours were. And also how much the colour can change between my screen settings and yours and what your printer is setup to print out.

I remember reading something years ago that stated alot were done so that they were the same tones in black and white photos.

[RichardT10829]

i was using a cannon bubblejet with with its own print wizard using kodak gold quality gloss photopaper, the swatches i have are in colour in Mike starmers book labelled SCC shade no 5 described as having a grey appearence with yellow brown cast introduced 1942, veterans describe it as khaki or dirty sand. and the black disruptive is SCC 14 (blue blackdisruptive).... i am only quoting from the book itself which is worth buying the guy seems to go to the Nth degree about paint colours and schemes.

found this on youtube which is very very close to the swatch but there is an awefull lot of light flooding into the lens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed6mq...eature=related

[sapper41]

Starmers books are pretty good i have to agree, he has spent an awfull lot of time in gathering the relevant documents together.

As for the comments on the schemes and dates it must be rememberd that supplies were critical and repaint jobs were really not on unless the situation really called for it. Thier are pics of vehicles and artillery pieces at alamien and they are still wearing the caunter scheme (granted i am biased as my truck is in that camo) If you have the history of the units he served with that could well point you in the right direction.
Have attached pic of truck so you can see the colours full bore as it were,
Middle stone, slate, silver grey

Regards
Tim

[Mark Mackenzie]

Light Mud was the colour for Sicily. It was considered too light for Italy. British AFV in Italy were repainted with green or brown paint until supplies of Olive Drab became available.

[McDell Bros]

Light mud with blue/black camo was used by all New Zealand armour and a lot of transport for the first few months of the Italian campaign. Infact our Staghounds remained that colour untill the end. Although a lot of the Kiwi veterans refer to it as Mud/Grey, I,m sure its still the same colour. Apparently some of the vehicles were painted on the ship on the way to Italy using & mixing the closest colours they had on hand. We have painted our carrier in these colours as serving in the 21st Infantry Battalion. The colours we used were a bit of an educated guess, but they probably varied a bit in service anyway. Here are a few photo's, the colour seems to vary a bit in different lights & is slowly dulling off & looking better.

[Mark Mackenzie]

From what I have been able to dig up, a request was made by 15th Army Group at the beginning of November 1943 for the replacement of the Light Mud/Black scheme as soon as possible. A colour similar to Olive Drab was requested. Orders were issued by HQ 8th Army in January 1944, stating that Olive Drab would not become available until early spring and that until then a uniform dark green or dark brown was to be used where available. This applied to Commonwealth AFV as well (both these documents are attached).

New Zealand Divisional Cavalry Staghounds were repainted in April 1944, and I'm pretty sure from photos that the colours weren't Light Mud/Black (page 338):

http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2DiCa-c21.html

New Zealand tanks (18th Battalion) were repainted "Dark Green and Brown" in April 1944 (page 442) :

http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2-18Ba-c30.html

[RichardT10829]

i was going to do mine desert colours i think.... would iget away with light stone base (sand) with SCC2 dispruptive (no vertical lines) as per my build thread (pictures of a model)

my grandad was in iraq and persia 42 - 43 also went to Karrachi and india too.