Help - Identify this tank (South Alberta Horse c.1944)

[RAEMETIFFYSGT]

This is a photo of my Uncle George Allen (left), who was with the South Alberta Regiment during the war.

There is not much known about this photo, with the exception it was taken in about July/August 1944 somewhere in Europe.

I was wondering what type of tank this is. We (the family) have thought it was some kind of Sherman, but others have said it was an M10. I really can't tell, but the suspension is similar to a M4.

I would appreciate it very much if anyone can help me out in the correct identification.

Cheers,

Wes

[RAEMETIFFYSGT]

Here is another pic of my Uncle, this one taken what I am told was in Borden, Ontario prior to deployment overseas.

This is an obvious Sherman type Armd Veh, but without the gun for trg purposes.

Any input into the actual name, or possible location where the SAR were training prior to their O/S deployment would be greatly appreciated.


Cheers,

Wes

[John McGillivray]

The tank looks like a Sherman V, however it appears to be carrying a large box on top of the rear engine deck.

The second photo is a Ram tank, and not a Sherman. Someone else can give you more details.

[Dana Nield]

Looking at the photo I see a number of things that point to it being an M4A4 Sherman V:

- The slope of the rear armour hangs down in the center of the rear hull. (Different on a Sherman Hybrid)

- The engine access doors are the correct type for a V (But also for a Sherman Hybrid )

- Its not a M10 as the rear hull is the right shape for a Sherman but not an M10. There Turret is slightly hidden by what looks to be the engine access panel.

-Assuming that the turret is facing forward, there is evidence of a square loaders hatch showing. If this is a loaders hatch and not half of the semi-circular commanders hatch, we're looking at a Sherman Firefly.... Maybe.....


I took this image and enlarged it in photoshop using Genuine Fractuals. If you can send me a higher resolution photo I'll have another go at it.

Cheers!

Dana

[RAEMETIFFYSGT]

Thanks for the replies.

It appears to be some kind of an armoured shield on the back?

Dana, the size of the actual photo is about 65 x 45mm, and its blurred. I don't know if a better quality scan is possible.

Cheers,

Wes

[RAEMETIFFYSGT]

Here is yet another pic which the family knows nothing about. We are assuming its a photo of an tank during training? Can anyone identify this tank, say by the suspension?

[RAEMETIFFYSGT]

Here is another scan of the same above photo.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by RAEMETIFFYSGT
Any input into the actual name, or possible location where the SAH were training prior to their O/S deployment would be greatly appreciated.

Wes;

Prior to going overseas, the SAR were at Camp Debert, Nova Scotia, this is where they were at also when the Regiment was converted to an Armoured Regiment and allocated to the Canadian Armoured Corps.

Cheers

[RAEMETIFFYSGT]

Thanks Mark.

I sure would like to find more on the Regiment, such as nominal roles etc. We are not even sure of his rank while he served in the SAR.

Does anyone have access to the SAR nominal roles as per deployment to France??

My Uncle kept much of his military service to himself, and he unfortunatly died back in 1985.

He did manage to send my Dad many things home (a 3x5 German flag, some EKIIs, PoW watches, etc - all we still have). He also stayed back for the occupation after the war.

We knew during the occupation he had picked up a hitch-hiker (a German former PoW) in a car, and this German tried to kill him after an argument had broken out in thte vehicle. George managed to get the P38 pistol from him and the German was shot and killed with his own pistol. This incident haunted George all his life. I guess each Vet has his own story, and many delt with their trauma in different ways.

George is buried in Birch Hills, Saskatchewan.

My Dad had told me that George had some very close calls as he was lucky to escape, as he was at least twice in M4s when they were hit by enemy fire and destroyed. other crew members were sadly lost.

I wonder if the regiment's war diaries reflect any of this info?

Cheers,

Wes

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by RAEMETIFFYSGT
I wonder if the regiment's war diaries reflect any of this info?

Wes;

Which is your Uncle:

A/58206 Allen, G.E. or L/108201 Allen, G.A.D.

Cheers

[RAEMETIFFYSGT]

Mate! Thanks. Its the seond one, George Alexander David Allen. Does this nominal role list his rank?

Where can I find out more info shy of the Vets Affairs. Do I, being a blood relative have access to copies of his records?

Any further assistance is more than greatly appreciated.

You have solved a family mystery.


Thanks heaps.

Wes

[luc désormeaux]

Wes.
It may be interesting if you can get a hand on the book:

"South Albertas: a canadian regiment at war" by Donald E Graves.
It's a very good work. I recommend it.

[RAEMETIFFYSGT]

Thanks Luc,

Do you have an ISBN and publisher? I'll see if this can be obtained here in Sydney, as there is a couple of military bookshops in town.

Is the book still in print?

Cheers,
Wes

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by RAEMETIFFYSGT
Mate! Thanks. Its the seond one, George Alexander David Allen. Does this nominal role list his rank?

Wes;

According to the notes on the Nominal Roll, your Uncle joined the SAR ON 25 March, 1945 - that would explain why your first photo looks more like the Winter/Spring of '45 then July/August of '44.

As Luc has pointed out, there is an excellent book available on the SAR, entitled: SOUTH ALBERTAS, A CANADIAN REGIMENT AT WAR, by Donald E. Graves, Published by: Robin Brass Studio; Toronto, Ontario, Canada (1998), ISBN 1-896941-06-0. If I'm not mistaken, you can obtain a copy of this book through a fellow Forum member's firm (Clive M. Law) located here: Service Publications

It's a book well worth having.

Cheers

[luc désormeaux]

Hi Wes,
ISBN is 1-896941-06-0 and it is published by Robin Brass Studio.
I don't know if it is still available, all i can say is that i bought mine last year from http://www.servicepub.com/
Here is a link for you: http://www.rbstudiobooks.com/salta.html
Hope this can help.

[RAEMETIFFYSGT]

Thanks very much for the info.

Mark, does this info you have list his rank? Plus does it have the Unit he was SOS'd from?

Cheers,

Wes

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Wes,

I just did a quick search of SERVICEPUB and it doesn't seem to be on his list anymore... but you can email Clive yourself to verify. Otherwise, there are other sources; I include one here now:

http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/...ertas&sortby=2

I've dealt with this fellow before and you can use my name and MLU for a reference if you choose to buy from him. I'll echo the above to say that this boiok is a must-have!

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by RAEMETIFFYSGT
Mark, does this info you have list his rank? Plus does it have the Unit he was SOS'd from?

Hi Wes;

All it shows is his Svc No., Name & Initials and date joined SAR.

Cheers

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Wes, his service records will be available to you as a blood relative. The information on just how to get this started is located here:

http://www.genealogy.gc.ca/10/100907_e.html

[RAEMETIFFYSGT]

Geoff, and the rest of ya's, thanks very much for your assistance.

Cheers,

Wes

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Dana Nield
-Assuming that the turret is facing forward, there is evidence of a square loaders hatch showing. If this is a loaders hatch and not half of the semi-circular commanders hatch, we're looking at a Sherman Firefly.... Maybe.....

Dana, you're right: it is a Sherman VC Firefly. The turret has a loader's hatch and there is a gun travelling lock on the left-hand rear corner of the hull (Fireflies travelled with their guns to the rear). The "armoured shield on the back" is the engine hatch propped open - see attached pic.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by RAEMETIFFYSGT
We are assuming its a photo of an tank during training? Can anyone identify this tank, say by the suspension?

Too fuzzy to be sure: if the picture was taken in Canada, it must be a Ram tank (like in your second picture). If it was taken overseas, it is a Sherman tank more likely - although Ram tanks were used for training in the UK as well.

Great stuff this is Wes, good to see you're trying to find out more about your uncle's history

Hanno

[servicepub (RIP)]

I still carry this book. It was out of print for about a year but has now been reprinted.

Clive

http://www.servicepub.com