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  #1  
Old 08-09-15, 22:37
leo tomaiolo leo tomaiolo is offline
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Default 41 ford 3 ton 4x4

hello all. my name is leo and i'm from Connecticut in the USA i'm a new member to this form. have been following it for some time and has been a great source of info. i have a 1941 ford 3 ton duel wheel, long wheel base truck (158") that i'm in the process of restoring and converting to a marmon herington four wheel drive. the original idea was to represent a captured (US) truck in use by the ww2 german army. my original inspiration came from the book 'ford at war' by reinhard frank pg 19 captured ford in russia. i noticed several recent posts that are about captured fords so now is as good of a time as any. i have spent many hours researching captured fords and marmon conversions and while it maybe tough to say for sure weather this truck existed i do know that it could have been ordered from ford the way i'm building it. i'm going to try to post some pictures of my resto. the first couple are from when it was on the road (about 8 years ago) and will post my in progress picts next. i know this for a different forum but i also have a UC mark 2 that i'm also working on and will post that where it belongs. i'm very happy to finally get to be on this forum.

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  #2  
Old 09-09-15, 14:04
Ivan Podgornov Ivan Podgornov is offline
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Default

Hi!
Respect to your restoration efforts and good luck in continuation and new projects!

As for prototype, frankly speaking, I can't imagine how 1941 trucks could appear in Axis service in visible numbers, especially with Marmon-Herrington conversion.

Most similar versions per my understanding are:
1. Dutch 1940 Fords with following changes
- it should be 1940 Front-ornament on the hood instead of 1941
- headlight stands from 1938/39 models (without lamp)
- additional wing lights similar to harley Knucklehead (optional)
- Nederlandsche-Ford emblem (optional)
Also i'd note that
- typical German gaparite pins are very rare on such trucks, however notek light was addded sometimes.
- Left mirror is untypical (acualy i never seen that)

2. US 1940 trucks shipped to Finland in large quantities
- it should be 1940 Front-ornament on the hood instead of 1941
- Typically, cargo bed has low sides and another canvas
- Again, there are no left mirror.
- No gabarite pins

Also, such type of canister mounting is typical to German-originated Fords only.
Attached Thumbnails
1940u2-h_Ford_V8_Lkw_1940_I_LG2_Mariupol.jpg   1940u2_finland.jpg  

Last edited by Ivan Podgornov; 09-09-15 at 15:39. Reason: hood
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  #3  
Old 09-09-15, 17:31
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Welcome to the Forum.

I understand you already have the OD green sickness havcing been victim of a UC.

Interesting project you have in mind.

Be guided by comments from others but always remember IT IS YOUR TRUCK and you van do what you want with it....... be it a museum piece or a fun machine that looks the part.

Pictures of what you are playing with would be nice as some of us can't read toooo good.

Are you considering transplanting and original Marmon-Herrington power train conversion under your Ford or just converting with readily available 4x4 parts which could be modern system or a circa 1940 from a CMP donor truck?

In any events good luck, do not be afraid to ask questions and do not forget to let us see plenty of Photos.

Cheers
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  #4  
Old 09-09-15, 19:49
leo tomaiolo leo tomaiolo is offline
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thanks for the repiles. i figure the germans had captured at least 1 of everything at some point. i know i have seen a picture of what looked like a 1941 ford used by british forces in italy captioned "HQ truck in the mud near Rimini". as far as the 4 wheel set up it will be all original i have secured 2 marmon equiped trucks. one was a '41' with a single speed transfer case. and a '46' with a 2 speed and a compensating gear for the front axle. both were shortwheel base trucks 1.5 ton. i'm using the front axle from the '41' and the transfer case from the '46'. it's just a better case. my goal is to make it as close to 100% to 1941 ford as i can. i've already rebuilt the motor and gone thru the running gear, brakes, lines, etc. had to cut the chassie for the front drive shaft. mounted the crossmembers for the transfer case. i'm at the point that the rolling chassie is now a running and driving chassie. up next lot of pannel repair. i have loads of pictures.
Attached Thumbnails
IMG_20130815_185524_478 ford 41 b (1).jpg   IMG_20140317_214625_673 41 frame b.jpg   IMG_20140428_212236_883 41 ford (1) b.jpg   IMG_20140901_195253_777 (1) b.jpg   IMG_20150228_143639_122 (1) b.jpg  

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  #5  
Old 09-09-15, 22:44
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Wow!!!!!!

You are well underway.......love the pictures.

Somewhat familiar with the 4x4 Ford system used on Canadian Mil. Pat. but can understand how the tranny/engine is held in the frame at the back of the engine.

The front of the engine is mounted on the familiar two engine pads....but what holds up the rear.....?

You were very fortunate to find M-H power train to do your conversion.

Have you ever attended the Weare rally and/or when will we see your truck in the flesh?

You have a very unique vehicle.

Don't be stingy with the pictures.

Bob C
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  #6  
Old 10-09-15, 15:43
leo tomaiolo leo tomaiolo is offline
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ivan are the gaparite pins the width markers on the front bumper? as far as the mirror goes i have noticed that most trucks do only have one mirror but where i live people drive like a-holes and found it unavoidable. it also helps when i tow my PAK 38. but that's another thread. but maybe i can make it removable for shows.
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  #7  
Old 10-09-15, 20:41
Ivan Podgornov Ivan Podgornov is offline
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Hi Leo!
Quote:
Originally Posted by leo tomaiolo View Post
ivan are the gaparite pins the width markers on the front bumper?
Yes, I mean width markers on the front bumper.
Sorry, i don't know proper term.
There are several types of such markers on german Fords (some kind of evolution) and sometimes they were added to captured trucks. But not so often on 1940 Fords.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leo tomaiolo View Post
as far as the mirror goes i have noticed that most trucks do only have one mirror but where i live people drive like a-holes and found it unavoidable. it also helps when i tow my PAK 38. but that's another thread. but maybe i can make it removable for shows.
Yes, sure :-) I can't imagine how to drive without right mirror...
It was just a comment from scale modeller
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  #8  
Old 10-09-15, 22:12
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is offline
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Bob, the gearbox mount is hidden by the short propshaft, down onto the two holes in the black cross member.
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  #9  
Old 10-09-15, 22:14
rob love rob love is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Carriere View Post

The front of the engine is mounted on the familiar two engine pads....but what holds up the rear.....?
The rear adapter on the transmission has two feet that go down to the crossmember and have two motor mounts like the front of the engine.

The basic Ford transmission case is adaptable to many of the Ford models by changing that rear adapter, or in the case of the carrier, you have to add an extra hole in the case to accept the carrier (round) adapter.
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  #10  
Old 10-09-15, 22:54
Rob Beale Rob Beale is offline
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Default for interest's sake...

The rear gearbox mount Lynn describes is similar to that used in LP2 and LP2A carriers. (There are different mounting heights though)
Rob
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  #11  
Old 11-09-15, 03:18
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Mike Kelly Mike Kelly is offline
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Default neighbour

My 93 year old German neighbour was a driver in the artillery , he was captured in Italy . He told me he did his army driving license test in a 4X4 Opel truck . He showed me a interesting book he has, published in Germany during the war, the book details the technical specifications of British armour eg tanks , it is printed in the old Gothic German script, I would love to get a loan of it . Mike
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  #12  
Old 11-09-15, 05:29
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is offline
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Rob L., I think the mount is a one piece rubber mount that is probably captive in the cross member and held there with another plate on the bottom (I'm not sure about this particular set up) There are two steel bosses moulded into the rubber that stick up through the holes. The cast bracket bolts to these. The park brake anchor and speedo drive boss are part of the mount and can be easily seen.
I have one of those rubber mounts. It is a standard commercial Ford part, that used in conjunction with a std commercial cast mount, bolted to the back of the box at the holes you speak of. The LP2/ LP2A carriers used a longer rubber mount and a taller cast mount, both of which are Ford parts, special to the Australian pattern carriers.

Leo, I like your clever way of having only the front of the truck in your shed.
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Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
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So many questions....

Last edited by Lynn Eades; 11-09-15 at 05:38.
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  #13  
Old 12-09-15, 21:16
leo tomaiolo leo tomaiolo is offline
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you are correct on the trany mount see pict. the truck uses standard ford truck parts with the exception of cutting the trany crossmember to allow for the front drive shaft to have clearance.. as for the garage it is a bit short to fit the whole truck in but it does allow me to work on it with some heat in the winter. i'm hoping to have the truck done for next october to make it's first show at the colling's foundation. once i'm done i try to make as many shows as i can. i have the means to tow it where ever i need to bring it. a few shots of the frame. it runs and drives quite well. the color on the rims is what the body color will be.
Attached Thumbnails
IMG_20150911_162601_811 b.jpg   IMG_20150907_183011_387 b.jpg   IMG_20150823_102740_2201.jpg  
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  #14  
Old 13-09-15, 00:59
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Howard Howard is offline
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Smile Nice Work

Keep the updates and photos coming!
H
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  #15  
Old 13-09-15, 12:33
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Carriere View Post
Somewhat familiar with the 4x4 Ford system used on Canadian Mil. Pat.
Bob, more than "somewhat familiar", it was downright copied - see link:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post
Here's what Sid Swallow had to say on the subject (source: 'Canada's Wartime Prototypes' by Rolland Jerry, published in Vintage Canada, vol.5/2 of March/April 1978). From what I read, initially Ford assumed responsibility of designing the cab and sheetmetal, GM handled the chassis layout, while the four-wheel-drive layout was adopted from Marmon-Herrington. Ford and GM both handled detail engineering to make sure each manufacturer's components would suit the overall design.
And read my webpage here: http://www.mapleleafup.nl/marmonherrington/
Quote:
Marmon-Herrington's expertise on all-wheel drive vehicles was also called upon when the Canadian automotive industry geared up for war production: "Immediately after the war was declared, the Ford Motor Company of Canada were charged with the responsibility of developing a 4x4 truck for army use. Obviously, they had very little experience in this field [...] Consequently they went to the Marmon-Herrington Company, Indianapolis, who in peace time supplied conversion material to convert Standard Ford 4x2 trucks into 4x4 models for various commercial peace time usage. [...] these joints were unsuitable [...] [the weight of the more or less cab over engine design and heavy army wheels/tires put too much load on the front axle joints.] To solve this problem, "Bendix-Weiss and Rzeppa joints were chosen by General Motors and Ford respectively [...] [They later realized that the "Tracta" type was better but they were already tooled up with the above types, so left it as it was.] (The Design Record, Vol. 4, p. 27).

Last edited by Hanno Spoelstra; 12-09-17 at 22:24. Reason: updated webpage link
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  #16  
Old 14-09-15, 16:56
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Thanks Hanno

Strange how the CMP evolved.
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  #17  
Old 03-05-16, 22:22
leo tomaiolo leo tomaiolo is offline
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it's been awhile since i've posted. but things are back on track. i've made a lot of progress on the truck and will put some new picts up. been thinking about getting a 1940 hood for the truck but haven't found one for a reasonable price. wasn't sure if i should keep posting picts of the restoration here or start a new thread under restoration thread. i'll let the fourm moderators decide that.
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IMG_20160104_204752_475.jpg  
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  #18  
Old 17-05-16, 03:22
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Gordons Gordons is offline
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Default Mh

Most of the MH Fords where this model, a few where RH drive with roof hatch's, also there where earlier models with fender mounted head lights but they seemed to be 2 ton models and mostly aircraft refueling trucks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Podgornov View Post
Hi!
Respect to your restoration efforts and good luck in continuation and new projects!

As for prototype, frankly speaking, I can't imagine how 1941 trucks could appear in Axis service in visible numbers, especially with Marmon-Herrington conversion.

Most similar versions per my understanding are:
1. Dutch 1940 Fords with following changes
- it should be 1940 Front-ornament on the hood instead of 1941
- headlight stands from 1938/39 models (without lamp)
- additional wing lights similar to harley Knucklehead (optional)
- Nederlandsche-Ford emblem (optional)
Also i'd note that
- typical German gaparite pins are very rare on such trucks, however notek light was addded sometimes.
- Left mirror is untypical (acualy i never seen that)

2. US 1940 trucks shipped to Finland in large quantities
- it should be 1940 Front-ornament on the hood instead of 1941
- Typically, cargo bed has low sides and another canvas
- Again, there are no left mirror.
- No gabarite pins

Also, such type of canister mounting is typical to German-originated Fords only.
Attached Thumbnails
truck_usa_canol_3.jpg  
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  #19  
Old 17-05-16, 03:27
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Gordons Gordons is offline
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Default Ford MH

These MH had the low sides wood decks with an add on side extension for higher sides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leo tomaiolo View Post
it's been awhile since i've posted. but things are back on track. i've made a lot of progress on the truck and will put some new picts up. been thinking about getting a 1940 hood for the truck but haven't found one for a reasonable price. wasn't sure if i should keep posting picts of the restoration here or start a new thread under restoration thread. i'll let the fourm moderators decide that.
Attached Thumbnails
Sawmill Sept 28-07 141.jpg   Sawmill Sept 28-07 119.jpg  
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  #20  
Old 06-06-16, 21:47
leo tomaiolo leo tomaiolo is offline
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it's funny that you posted these pictures. both of my doner trucks were of this body style (left hand drive). was never a big fan of this body style around here it's a popular hot rod pick up truck body. this site (MLU) is loaded with images of 40-41 fords these are some of the pictures that i've been looking at for some ideas.
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  #21  
Old 06-06-16, 21:49
leo tomaiolo leo tomaiolo is offline
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this one is a german (european) built with the one piece windshield but other wise a 40-41 ford body. although the more i look at this picture it appears to printed in reverse. fill neck for the gas tank is on the wrong side or am i completely off and this is not a ford?
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aaw.sized ford.jpg  

Last edited by leo tomaiolo; 06-06-16 at 21:55. Reason: not sure if this is a ford.
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  #22  
Old 06-06-16, 23:04
Ilian Filipov Ilian Filipov is offline
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Hi Leo,
I see what you mean. So let's try it:



I'm ready to agree the swastika on the flag was reversed, it happened sometimes. Let's suppose also the cab isn't German/European but the openable windshield was lost. Now the truck looks almost CF60L MCP. Almost, because now there is another problem: in this version of the picture it turned to LHD!
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  #23  
Old 07-06-16, 00:34
leo tomaiolo leo tomaiolo is offline
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I like that trick. Lhd should mean German/European cab.
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  #24  
Old 07-06-16, 10:42
Peter Mossong Peter Mossong is offline
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Hi Leo. Your picture of the truck in the mud near Rimini, is a Kiwi one, from the NZ Ammunition Company NZASC (69 0n red/green square).

Cheers,
Pete M.
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  #25  
Old 07-06-16, 21:47
Ilian Filipov Ilian Filipov is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leo tomaiolo View Post
I like that trick. Lhd should mean German/European cab.
Exactly here is the problem: I'm not aware of any German Ford and, in that matter, of any German wartime truck, with split rim wheels.
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  #26  
Old 21-01-17, 18:28
leo tomaiolo leo tomaiolo is offline
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it's been awhile since i've been able to post any updates. i'm pretty much done with the truck. runs and drives quite well on the road and seems to perform great off road as well. like any project there's still some stuff to finish. but i'm a happy camper. i'll have more picts to post soon.
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IMG_20161230_141556 b.jpg   IMG_20161230_141539 b.jpg   IMG_20161230_141617 b.jpg  
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  #27  
Old 21-01-17, 23:54
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Dave Newcomb Dave Newcomb is offline
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Hi; I have an Original '40 Ford 01T here in Oregon 2 wheel drive medium WB stake bed. The Early Ford V8 Club trk books show '39 and '40's in North Africa with the Commonweath troops. A restored '40 showed up at the MVPA convention this Summer. My photo will nto load? Newc
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  #28  
Old 22-01-17, 20:28
leo tomaiolo leo tomaiolo is offline
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welcome aboard. as far as the pictures go i find that i have to resize them to be able to post them. is your truck currently restored or is in the works? this a great site for info on war time fords. and they treat us guys with a slightly different shade of tan paint really well.
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  #29  
Old 22-01-17, 20:50
leo tomaiolo leo tomaiolo is offline
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here's some from this past years Collings foundation. if you go to you tube and look for "battle for the air field 2016" you can see some footage of the truck in 'action'. if you do go note that i'm actually driving the Hetzer and one of my friends is driving the truck. lol. the first pict is of the truck and a PAK 184r (captured russian anti tank gun 45mm), parked next to the flak 36 88mm and last looking thru the driver periscope of the Hetzer at the 41. it's weird watching someone else drive your truck.
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  #30  
Old 24-01-17, 22:58
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Default 41 Ford

HI Leo your truck looks very good, do you have any interior pictures you can share with us.
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