Heads Up: 10.50-16 directional tyres

[Tony Smith]

That's because the US Tire and Rim Association has for some unknown reason chosen to adopt an unusual standard, where for a nominal rim size of 16" or less, the bead seat will be the Nominal size LESS .032" (+/- .015") and for rim sizes above 16", the dimension will be the Nominal size PLUS .188" (+/- .015"). The British seem to use the PLUS .188" for all rims sizes, and thus we don't ave an issue with incompatible tyres for the 20" rims.

Post-war British rims have been brought into line with the US dimensions, eliminating problems for Ferret and Land Rover owners.

[Grant Bowker]

There are clearly two different 16" rims. As proof I offer the attached table from volume 4 of the AEDB Design Record. The table doesn't refer to bead diameter but with so many dimensions different, except in the nominal sense, I find it easy to believe that bead diameters are at least slightly different as well.

[Bob Carriere]

Well the drawings posted backes up the rough measurements we did on Hup and C15a CMP rims.....

The CMP rim has a definite differences from the HUP..... (Rob noticed I did not call the HUP substandard this time...hihihi)....
Which would allow a much easier installation with out power tools.

The CMP rim is a tight fit BUT not such an issue as they can't be installed. I had 5 new US made bar thread 9:00x16 tires installed on precleaned and POR painted rims...... the tire installer used a mop with some lubricant....but they went on with out a problem or complaints from the guy who installed. This is the same guy that come to my barn to replace a 16x28 tractor tire
filled with liquid calcium singlehandedly in about an hour...and $450...... I give him credit he knows how to do it.

His shop charges us $15 to remove the tires from the rims using a hand held hydraulic bead breaker...... sure beats straining to removed a rust welded 1940 tire from a rim.

If we have too much difficulty intalling our new 10:50 ourselves off they go to his shop.

It would be nice to hear from Mike in Windsor who installed one of his tires by hand.... how about it Mike.... ahve you recovered from the Hernia...???

In any event if any one has bought 10:50 and they won't fit will take them off your hands for half price.....

BooB

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bob Carriere
In any event if any one has bought 10:50 and they won't fit will take them off your hands for half price.....

[RHClarke]

Originally posted by Bob Carriere
Well the drawings posted backes up the rough measurements we did on Hup and C15a CMP rims.....The CMP rim has a definite differences from the HUP..... (Rob noticed I did not call the HUP substandard this time...hihihi)....
Which would allow a much easier installation with out power tools. The CMP rim is a tight fit

Uh, Bob? The HUP is a CMP. I am sure you meant an eight bolt rim... Funny guy.

[terry johns]

Here is some information about the Czech made MITAS tires I spoke about earlier....
You can go directly to their cataloge and find the info on page 24 & 25 out of 44. This link will take your to their pdf catalog download which has the entire agricultural line of tires.

http://www.cgs.cz/download/katalogy/...atabook_07.pdf

I first found this type of tire when I saw the Bofors Lorry at the Firepower, Artillery Museum at Woolwich near London. Theirs was marked 'Barum' however.

I have had two of these tires on my truck for about two years now. I've had my C30 up to speeds of 55 mph but I do normally cruise at 30-35 mph.

They are however officially rated for speeds of 40Km/h or about 25 mhp. They are 14 ply rated for 2800 Kgr. at 75 psi. I find 75 to be awful high as I normally run them at 45 psi and can see that they are laying flat across about 90% of the tread when being driven on the road.

I have the name of the North Carolina dealership who got me my two for only $75@. I have asked him for three more. Anyone else?

[terry johns]

Here is the USA MITAs tire rep....



Neil Rayson

President,

CGS Tires US,Inc.

7400 Carmel Executive Park

Charlotte NC 28226

Phone +1-704-542-3422

Cell +1-704-491-1632

Fax +1-704-542-3474

Mail to: neil.rayson@cgs-tires.com

www.cgs-tires.com

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Reckon we'll just have to see how it goes with the tyres & rims the lads have standing by. It might be an opportune moment to reintroduce for review Mr. Notton's original post on his technique:

British v Canadian rims and fitting

Its a bit incredible that we went to war with two identically defined tyre sizes that are actually different, all is not lost. The difference as far as I can determine is the tyre bead angle, everything except the Canadian is a 5º bead (to the horizontal or axle line), the Canadian tyres are 0º, theoretically this makes the Brit ones easier to get off as they become sloppy on the rims with the smallest movement away from the rim edge.

We have heard the tales of rim machining to ease the current types onto Canadian rims and people shaving off the inner lip of the bead with a utility knife, but its not really needed, the bead on modern tyres seems to be quite flexible enough to fit but it is a struggle. Here's how we have done it several times over on a F15 with various current manufacture 9.00x16's, let me stress its our way and I am not advocating or recommending the method which has its dangers if extreme care is not taken as I hope will be patently obvious.

Once on, the 5º bead angle tyres WILL need a hydraulic truck sized, four arm bead pusher-offer of substantial grunt to remove them again, you will never get them off at home.

You need an extra pair of understanding, strong, competent hands, don't for one moment think wife/girlfriend/lad next door can lend a hand when needed.

Clean, shot-blasted, painted rims are an essential starting point, just getting the tube and flap in a new tyre is difficult, the beads are always sprung together, whichever way you seem to fit these the flap hole, valve, or both, always seem to be pointing the wrong way no matter how hard you try to deduce where they are going to end up, the flap often gets slightly too far round and needs taking out to stop it pulling the valve sideways.

You need a lot of rubber lubricant - washing-up liquid contains salt and will rust the rim, Vaseline/petroleum jelly rots rubber, we have used Hellerine - a commercial rubber lubricant used in the electronic industry for fitting rubber sleeves on wiring, its made by Hellerman; this stuff is thicker than 90EP and twice as slippery. You will find a air impact wrench almost vital for spinning the split rim nuts on and off unless you happen to be Mr Universe. You will get very hot, very angry and totally filthy.

Get the tube in and give it a little air, valve core removed, to open the beads and see where the valve settles, get plenty of lube up the inside of the bead for at least an inch, struggle with the flap and get it all in then add a puff of air again and see all is sensibly lined up, it probably wont be too well.

Really, really lube the bead; really lube the whole of both the inner rim faces that form the well right out to and up the rim edge. Lots.

Put a long brass extention on the valve, it will disappear if you don't, place the tyre on the inside rim as square as possible, it will only just sit on it, put the outside rim on and start the two long rim studs, pull them down enough to start all the rim nuts by nearly half depth. Don't over-do it you WILL pinch the flap and tube somewhere.

Put a _little_ puff of air in, just enough to make the tube take shape, and with a mirror and a bit of flat wood inspect between the rims and encourage the flap, by pushing with the wood, to centralise itself and go up into the tyre a bit, but don't over-do it as the flap will pop out elsewhere.

This bit is POTENTIALLY LETHAL and intrinsically UNSAFE - BE WARNED.

Ensure you're happy that the two long studs have a sensible amount of thread engaged and all the rest have at least two or three turns on them, all should be just bearing on their seats. With the valve core still out to allow instant deflation, GINGERLY, inflate in short bursts until you see the beads start to move up and out along the rim, it takes a moment, give it time and NO MORE THAN 10 -15 psi, as soon as this happens remove the inflator immediately.

The rims will likely now fall together when it deflates which is a good sign, to be certain, lever them apart and inspect with the mirror to see the flap is now properly up in the tyre and will not get trapped anywhere. Torque the split rim nuts down fully and inflate, the beads will pop out fully onto the rim edges at about 20 - 25 psi, remove the extention piece and fit the core, bring the tyre up to about 50 psi and check the side wall concentricity rings, a few hearty thumps with a hide-faced mallet usually corrects any slight anomalies.

If you can't immediately visualise what I've described and how to achieve it, then I make the only recommendation herein, which is that you should NOT be doing this at all.

Richard
(Southampton UK)

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
It might be an opportune moment to reintroduce for review Mr. Notton's original post on his technique:

Geoff, go back a page, eh?!?

H.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Geoff, go back a page, eh?!?

H.

Hanno, it's called K.I.S.S., eh?

G.

[Mike Timoshyk]

Been reading all the chaff having gotten back from a few days with the Naval Reserve. As the brown jobs would say...looks like trouble in the butts...

I borrowed a bead-braker that would / could be used on everything from Massy Harris big boys to open pit rigs. I used up about 5 months of the back end of my life and 3 qts of elbow grease but I got the Bastards off. Sometimes I should just listen to 9er Domestic and just throw em onthe truck and let the professionals handle it. Pride is a dangerous companion.

Rims have been treated and I even applied a coat of glossy and let that dry as well. I took the time to measure the rims and just as this thread has suggested it is gonna be a little tight. When I removed the Wranglers of the rims I noticed that the bead had been shaved to accomodate the difference. I don't want it to come to that unless it is a last resort. I have considered many ways to overcome this dilema thinking of past technical problems.
Like using dry ice to shrink the rims as done in the past with CO2 extinguishers and fitting bearings....would need a big ass tub with lots o dry ice....a disaster just waiting to happen. Nope....gonna take is slow and careful and if I get too frustrated I will go to the pros....and let them handle it.

Will keep you posted with my progress....

Cheers from Windsor

Mike

[Bob Carriere]

..... to be sure removing tires that have been welded on the rim since 1940 and some 43 on my truck was beyond what a single man could do. I even used the edge of my 8000 tractor bucket and still could not remove the tires off the rims.

At the tire shop they first poured old gasoline around the bead apparently to soften the rubber... then he went at it with a small 12x12x12 hydraulic bead breaker..... in less than 5 minutes he had the tires off the rims.

Some of the old rubber and fabric was till stuck on the rim and had to be removed with an air powered needle gun.....being a Navy guy you must be familair with those noisy bas****
When working on a half drum on a steel table I had to use earmuffs.... the ring was deafening......

Now tell us.... how did you install the one new tire you photographed...??? elbow grease and K-Y Jelly if you please....

The local shop charges me $25 to remove the tires....I pick the rims up clean/paint and return them to him and he re-instals the new ones ...... he may charge more now... that was two years ago....oh get to take my old tires back as they charge a disposal fee.......

If you tell them to do the tires in the quiet time and that you won't need them until next week.... they are a bit more flexible with the price.....

Hardly worth the effort to blow a gut!!!

Boob

[Mike Timoshyk]

Well Bob,

I must confess that I didn't think you would take the foto seriously...if you look closely you will see the rim is not a CMP rim, and the munchkin...well he was used to show the actual scale in the picture...I scooped the pic off ebay as someone was flogging some god awful sized tires.....somewhere about 13.50 x 20 or somthing like that....I will be posting pics in the next couple of days ....I will get my wife to take some action shots.

cheers for now....

[rob love]

I know we have talked about cutting beads before here on MLU, and I have had to do it with many varieties of tire to get them on those 15cwt rims. I find that a common untility knife with a brand new blade does the job nicely. And don't get cheap with the blades. They are good for one, maybe two beads, then you turn the blade around and use the other end. If you don't cut into the cords, I don't believe yo are affecting the integrity of the tire.
I used M-series non-directional tires (had to shave them a little bit) and ferret run flat (had to shave them a lot), and towed them on the KL (a 11000 lb cmp) from Moose Jaw to Winnipeg at 90 kmh several times. Never had a problem.

Might I also suggest the use of a vegetable based grease as a rim slip. It will allow the beads to slip onto the rim without turning over themselves. Michelen makes a 5 lb yellow icecream pail of the stuff which works great.With the ferret tires, I often had to count on the airpressure to fully seat the beads.

These are great looking tires. I know you guys will solve the problem of mounting them.

Any chance the manufacturer could be talked into making the different bead available in future runs, or would that require a new mold?

[Mike Timoshyk]

Well I just spent about an hour mounting two of the 10.50 X16 tires that I received from Wallace Wade. I mounted them on the F15A rims from my truck.

There have been all sorts of yes and no's about whether they will fit on British Rims or not....well I am here to tell you that

YES THEY FIT......

Here is how it is done:

Put the tube and flap in the tire. Place the inside rim on a concrete floor. Place tire on rim....it doesn't fit on yet. Now place the outer rim on the tire. Remember very little air in the tube. Just enough to put some pressure on the flap. Now stand on the rims or have someone stand on the rim and start a nut....now another and another till all are on....now evenly tighten down with impact gun. Careful to watch the tube valve and a quick look at the flap. ok tighten right up. Now start adding air to the tire.....the tire will look lop sided on the rim....where the largest space between the bead and rim is....add some Murphy's soap for tube and tubless tires or household dishsoap....this will lub the little bit that must be set on the rim......add air till it pops on place and voila mounted....see pics.....they do fit.....

All the doubting Thomas' can rest assured a picture is worth a thousand words....tomorrow the last two

cheers

Mike from Windsor Ontario

[terry johns]

I took one Wade tire to an implement dealer today and they said they would not do it because they did not think it would fit.

I then visited another tire dealer that also does big semi's and forklift tires. (I promised Wade that I would not give up too easily.)

The man there said, "No. problem. I'll get it on"

Half hour later there it was. Took it home and started to put it on and found that the flap was pinched between the wheel halves.

Would they be able to get it back apart? Would I find the bead be broken and tire split?

I took it back and another fellow had it back apart straightened the pinched flap and got the two halves to seat evenly within twenty minutes but its now too late (dark) to mount if for a test run.

I may have to eat my words. I now have one Wade 10.50-16 mounted on a Kelsey Canada 600/16 wheel for my C30. Next week I will take them another tire and get it mounted and take Lorry for a two new tire test run. Rest assured I will let you know the further results.

PS: I heard back from Mitas and they no longer sell that tire in the USA and again emphasis their 10.50-16 is for off road implement use only.

Terry Johns

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

This is really good stuff, guys!

[Mike Timoshyk]

One more bit I forgot to mention....when you have all the bits together and you have added some air and the lube and the tire doesn't want to seat just give the rim a smack with the ol' BFH..
Big F......g Hammer. The shock will make it pop in place.

cheers

Mike...with a BSEG

[RHClarke]

Bob and I thought that we would have a glut of half-price tires, but thanks to Mike, that plan is scrap.

Good show, Mike. I guess that little difference wasn't much of a difference at all.

Bob is probably out in the barn pouring lube on his casing now (that sounds kinda rude, but you know what I mean...).

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by RHClarke
Bob is probably out in the barn pouring lube on his casing now (that sounds kinda rude, but you know what I mean...).

Guess it beats hell outta them little blue pills (way to go, Bob!), but Jesus - out in the barn? In winter??
.

.

.

.

.
(surely you didn't think I'd be able to leave that alone, did you...?)

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Guess it beats hell outta them little blue pills (way to go, Bob!), but Jesus - out in the barn? In winter??
.

.

.

.

.
(surely you didn't think I'd be able to leave that alone, did you...?)

Jif...
Haven't you been reading the Hammond Barn News thread..???
The lads from the barn have been murdering every living stick within a half mile of the barn,and stocking up the cordage for the Ritualistic offerings to Lucifer...the bottomless wood/oil monster furnace and fan system installed in the Ham.Barn..
With Lucifer on full throttle,I defy any man or beast to stand within a pistol shot of Lucifers smoking maw...
Tis hot enough to burn the face and eyes off'n a brass Budda..
Does a fine job of keeping the lads toasty warm on these -20 C days ...
I'm sure that Lucifer will be in the conversation at Gracies thrash tonight..

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Mike Timoshyk
There have been all sorts of yes and no's about whether they will fit on British Rims or not....well I am here to tell you that

YES THEY FIT......

Here is how it is done:

Put the tube and flap in the tire. Place the inside rim on a concrete floor. Place tire on rim....it doesn't fit on yet. Now place the outer rim on the tire. Remember very little air in the tube. Just enough to put some pressure on the flap. Now stand on the rims or have someone stand on the rim and start a nut....now another and another till all are on....now evenly tighten down with impact gun. Careful to watch the tube valve and a quick look at the flap. ok tighten right up. Now start adding air to the tire.....the tire will look lop sided on the rim....where the largest space between the bead and rim is....add some Murphy's soap for tube and tubless tires or household dishsoap....this will lub the little bit that must be set on the rim......add air till it pops on place and voila mounted....see pics.....they do fit.....

Great news Mike!

Sounds like you used the same method Richard Notton and Dave Ballard used to fit the US (undersized) Simex ST-24 tyres to Dave's F15's British (oversized) rims.

Hanno

[Mike Timoshyk]

Word of caution when mounting the Wallace Wade tires on the F15A rim in the garage.

Take into consideration the height of the door when applying the rubbers...what used to fit with the teenie weenie 9s now may be juuuuust a tad too tall....

now what....breakup the concrete and dig a pit....mmmmm Raise the garage with jacks.....mmmm Remove door and cut opening larger with chain saw....mmmmm aw frig it ...I will leave it outside in the portable cover for now and build a floor under it for convienience.

the ongoing saga .....


Mike in Windsor

[Bob Carriere]

HI Mike

How much clearance do you need when the new tires are on....

.... you might get by just letting air out of the tires....????

...or leave the top off until the last touch......

something to be said for a warm garage (relative to outside) and a good solid floor.


Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Originally posted by Bob Carriere
HI Mike

How much clearance do you need when the new tires are on....

.... you might get by just letting air out of the tires....????

...or leave the top off until the last touch......

something to be said for a warm garage (relative to outside) and a good solid floor.


Bob

No Bob your not thinking creatively, you do what I did many years ago with a backhoe. Rev up the engine pop the clutch and drive out. You guessed it they put the backhoe into the shop with the boom down. Took out two sections of the overhead door and the door header.

[Bob Carriere]

In my case it is the vertical firewood splitter that fits on the 3 point hitch of the tractor....... just 3 inches too tall.....

After scrapping the top header to the double door in the barn twice in on season...... I opted to raise the door frame 12 inches and added matching extensions to each doors.

Now.... I am not sure if it will be high enough to clear Rob's HUP....

Bob

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bob Carriere
Now.... I am not sure if it will be high enough to clear Rob's HUP....

Bob,

Get Rob to take his training wheels off, it should fit.

See, what would you do without me?

[RHClarke]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Bob, Get Rob to take his training wheels off, it should fit.
See, what would you do without me?

The student of CMP vehicle history will know that the HUP is a refinement of its brutish older siblings. It is the superior model of the CMP class, with added touches of utility not found on any other model.

It does not come with, nor does it need "training wheels". This is perhaps a Toronto requirement.

Careful measurement of Bob's barn door opening reveals a half-inch of room to spare!

[terry johns]

Yesterday I got my second of Wade's tires mounted on my C30 wheel.

Today I mounted the two on the rear of 'Herbie' my C30 despite the cold rain and went on first test drive of about three miles with no ill effects.

Yummy-old Crow.

I still have a fear that perhaps someday the now stretched tires may blow but perhaps I'm a worry wart. So far so good, so far so good.

Now do I mount them in opposite orientation on the front or not?

[Bob Carriere]

Terry

To get the proper orientation you will have to take them off the rims and re-install........hihihi

Good show on the persistance...


Bob