1st Hussars and Holy Roller & Perry Kitson

[Ed Storey]

Sadly, there seemed to be more interest in that silly coin then in the tank.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Sadly, there seemed to be more interest in that silly coin then in the tank.

I had a civilian car guy I know send me a link to this story because he knows I tend towards the military stuff. Long story short he was affronted I spoke negatively about it. From that I gather the average joe is quite happy with a new paint job and return to the concrete slab of death for $200K.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Detail photo showing the extent of rust damage on the commander's hatch. Looks like it was properly de-rusted and coated, a job well done.

How long will it last when sitting outside in the open again?



Source: https://london.ctvnews.ca/holy-rolle...iled-1.5924194

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

I had a civilian car guy I know send me a link to this story because he knows I tend towards the military stuff. Long story short he was affronted I spoke negatively about it. From that I gather the average joe is quite happy with a new paint job and return to the concrete slab of death for $200K.

Yes, the average Joe is more than happy to see vehicles on outdoor display slowly disintegrate; but it only takes one person with some influence to change things. A good example is Forceful III, the GGFG's trophy tank that used to sit outside of their drill hall in Ottawa.

It was during the construction of the new CWM in 2004 that I was approached to see if the Guards would be interested in having their tank on permanent display in the museum. Don't get me wrong, I only served with the Guards for two years back in the early 1980s so I didn't have any influence with the Regiment. I made a few contacts and found out that the Guards were not interested in moving the tank to the CWM as they liked having it in front of the drill hall. I thought the idea had died until a member of the Guards Senate (an oversight committee of retired senior Guards) had heard of the proposal via their RSM and liked the idea. He was able to convince the Senate of the validity of the proposal who in turn swayed the Regiment into allowing their beloved tank to be on permanent indoor display to be seen by more people then it ever would sitting in front of the drill hall.

I wouldn't say that the museum capitalized very well on the tank's history or did much to make it look like it did during the war; but Forceful III is on permanent indoor display in the CWM since 2005 and I count that as a 'W*'.

* W = Win

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I wouldn't say that the museum capitalized very well on the tank's history or did much to make it look like it did during the war; but Forceful III is on permanent indoor display in the CWM since 2005 and I count that as a 'W*'.

* W = Win

Hear, hear, well said and well done!

Now, how to we influence and convince the city council?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

From: https://globalnews.ca/news/8880090/h...ng-london-ont/

“Retired lieutenant-colonel Ian Haley says some of the biggest challenges with restoring the Holy Roller stemmed from finding original parts, most of which were still in Europe as most tanks never left after the war.”



“A glimpse inside the restored Holy Roller Sherman tank, which is much more spacious than it would’ve been in the Second World War.”


And:

“ Volunteer David Wyatt got to sit in the commander’s seat when the tank rolled out to the public during Thursday’s unveiling, a show of gratitude to him and two others for their work on the project.

“It meant a lot to me, it meant a lot to honour all the veterans that have served, especially with what’s going on with the world right now,” Wyatt said.

“These guys were all really, really young when they did and they gave up lives to go to Europe and serve, so it’s the least you can do.”

The tank is now set to return to its home in Victoria Park just in time for the 150th anniversary of the 1st Hussars and Wyatt says it’ll be tough to say goodbye.

“On Saturday, which was our last workday, one of the fellas said ‘it’s almost bittersweet,’ because we came together as a group of strangers, we spent a year together, it’s really nice to be at the end of the project, but it feels sad that it’s over,” Wyatt said.

“I hope it stays in the park in this condition for a long time.””

[David Dunlop]

Why is it more spacious inside now than when it was in the Second World War?

David

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Why is it more spacious inside now than when it was in the Second World War?

Because all the interior has been stripped out. Notice the temporary 2 by 4's for a seat. I also wonder what all the brass screws and washers are for on the right side.

[David Dunlop]

Hmm. They made that sound like an accomplishment.

David

[chris vickery]

A travesty is what it is IMO.
Putting all that work into it just so it can sit outside and rot some more, get vandalized etc.
Our museums and government are hardly the best keepers of our heritage, we all know others who have better collections and are way better stewards of history than this…

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

A travesty is what it is IMO.
Putting all that work into it just so it can sit outside and rot some more, get vandalized etc.

Just wait till this happens again... Then start your petition as Canadians with the right sense of history.

Originally Posted by James P

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/londo...ndon-1.5975322

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

Because all the interior has been stripped out. Notice the temporary 2 by 4's for a seat. I also wonder what all the brass screws and washers are for on the right side.

So where did all the interior parts go?

Hopefully not in the scrap bin, as they well know that “some of the biggest challenges with restoring the Holy Roller stemmed from finding original parts, most of which were still in Europe as most tanks never left after the war.”

[David Dunlop]

A perfect example of a vehicle owner seeing what they want, but failing utterly to see what they actually have on hand. In this case, a specifically named and historically traceable and documented Sherman from a local Regiment has now been stripped into yet another generic, arm waving memorial to the Military at large. They are proud of the name on the side of it, but could just as easily put that name on a night club across the street from the park, and have accomplished just as much.

David

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

So where did all the interior parts go?

Hopefully not in the scrap bin, as they well know that “some of the biggest challenges with restoring the Holy Roller stemmed from finding original parts, most of which were still in Europe as most tanks never left after the war.”

I have no in with the restoration group so am only guessing, but I expect the European parts they were so challenged finding were the tracks and roadwheels. Everything else (cosmetic) on the outside is as it was pre-paint job. They would not have wasted time acquiring anything for the inside as it wouldn't be necessary or seen for the next 50 years. Most of the interior looked to be rusty beyond repair so was probably removed and scrapped. Another shame as I've seen restorers bring even he most perforated pieces back to life.

[chris vickery]

To piggyback on to David’s comments;
A unique vehicle that has a documented history should be saved. I guess I’m not really surprised that the Regt itself isn’t putting up a fuss, it takes a core group of individuals who appreciate things to rally for a cause.
The plaques attached to the exterior could have been just as easily removed and mounted in a chunk of cement to be displayed.
Something like Holy Roller would probably be more appreciated at the Tank Museum in Oshawa than sitting as a roost for pigeons in the park…

[Hanno Spoelstra]

And it is back in the park: https://globalnews.ca/news/8882878/h...rk-london-ont/

[Ed Storey]

I guess it did not matter that the original T41 (?) tracks were swapped out for T48 (?) tracks bought in France.

[David Herbert]

Those are T54E1 links in the photo above. Probably the most common of the WW2 steel chevron designs so entirely in keeping if not original to the tank.

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

Those are T54E1 links in the photo above. Probably the most common of the WW2 steel chevron designs so entirely in keeping if not original to the tank.

T54E1 tracks indeed, BOMB was running on a set of these in June 1945.

Not used a lot these days, most Sherman tanks are fitted with rubber tracks as otherwise they cannot be operated on public roads.

"Original Toronto Star caption: D-Day veteran; this Canadian-built tank (sic) of the Sherbrooke Fusiliers was still in action at V-E-Day. After landing on a Normandy beach; it fought its way across northwestern France; Belgium; Holland and into Germany. It's still a real fighter"

Source: https://digitalarchive.tpl.ca/object...-sherbrooke-fu

[Jordan Baker]

Well that didn’t take too long. Already vandalized

https://london.ctvnews.ca/holy-rolle...eXZNlVjI3lQzAo

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Jordan Baker

Well that didn’t take too long. Already vandalized

https://london.ctvnews.ca/holy-rolle...eXZNlVjI3lQzAo

I guess the tree sap and bird shit is OK for a war hero of this significance.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

I guess the tree sap and bird shit is OK for a war hero of this significance.

Yup, that is the price you pay when you love an item so much that it just has to go back outside to a city park.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

The story continues (thanks to Robert Morrison for sending this link to me):

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/londo...rged-1.6486728

I guess it helps to create the awareness how precious this tank is and that plans need to be made to protect it from vandalism and external influences.

”My husband said they should put a cage over it to stop people from vandalizing it. Why can't people leave things alone?" Young said. "If they do have to cover it to protect it, that's going to eliminate that connection that kids can have with it."



Larry Belliveau came to take pictures of the newly restored tank on Monday, just hours before police released news that they had arrested a man they believe was responsible for the vandalism.
"It's a shame because they're going to have to put a fence around it," said Belliveau. "I don't know what our city has become. You can't fix stupid."
Larry Belliveau says he's angry someone vandalized the restored Second World War tank in Victoria Park. (Kate Dubinski/CBC)

[David Dunlop]

Hanno.

That quote speaks volumes. If the ‘connection’ for the children and their parents today is this tank is simply a play toy in a park, the true significance of the tank has already been completely lost.

Same for the vandal. He chose to see what he wanted, not the true significance. All the words cast in metal on the plaques are just lip service now.


David

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Hanno.

That quote speaks volumes. If the ‘connection’ for the children and their parents today is this tank is simply a play toy in a park, the true significance of the tank has already been completely lost.

Same for the vandal. He chose to see what he wanted, not the true significance. All the words cast in metal on the plaques are just lip service now.

I figure the vandal was looking to actually cut his way into the tank (he wouldn't know he was break and entering into the engine compartment) to inspect the pristine restoration first hand. Or maybe he wanted to take it for a joy ride; the news did show it running. Ridiculous you say? Probably for rational people but I know first hand some of the dangerous creepy people that populate downtown London. The good news is the police might be able to return the no doubt stolen grinder to its rightful owner.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Gentlemen, I kept seeing comments on Holy Roller in the New Posts feed that I started in 2017. Today I re-read the last few years. What a collection of cranky old complainers! Nothing better to do than poke s#it at the project and complain about this or that, because 'back in my day ....'. You sound like that Monty Python skit of four old Yorkshiremen.

A few years ago (now here I go), I was assigned to put my arms around a very large and scattered collection of papers, printed materials, and maps at Mapping and Charting Establishment. It is a collection that Ed knows very well. I learned from painful experience, like Ed did, that historical preservation in a public funds setting is completely different from working on ones own private activities. What I might have liked to do would be impossible when confronted by issues and requirements I should have thought about two years ago and submitted a fully costed business plan with three Courses of Action, etc. In short, there were opportunities lost and others seized. It all came down to the project and how the project was executed, because in Canada projects are what work. Did anyone miss my emphasis on projects?

Let's rejoice in the small victories with Holy Roller. A) She is back on display, B) people know her name and recall the tagline part of her story, C) public institutions like Fanshawe College threw their weight behind the project, and D) Holy Roller has had some of the TLC she's been missing over the years. Sure, everyone would have done it differently but complaining here didn't seem to change much after the project was underway.

BTW, the Holy Roller beer wasn't hard to pour into a glass and manage to get down my throat.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Not Monty Python, more Shakespeare: "to thine own self be true"...I am a cranky old complainer, or maybe an old cranky complainer. Just pointing out the missed opportunity is all.

However I did read Canada's three national museums currently have a moratorium on acquiring any new artefacts. I couldn't donate my Fox to them even if I wanted to. Now THAT'S Canadian.

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

Gentlemen, I kept seeing comments on Holy Roller in the New Posts feed that I started in 2017. Today I re-read the last few years. What a collection of cranky old complainers! Nothing better to do than poke s#it at the project and complain about this or that, because 'back in my day ....'. You sound like that Monty Python skit of four old Yorkshiremen.

A few years ago (now here I go), I was assigned to put my arms around a very large and scattered collection of papers, printed materials, and maps at Mapping and Charting Establishment. It is a collection that Ed knows very well. I learned from painful experience, like Ed did, that historical preservation in a public funds setting is completely different from working on ones own private activities. What I might have liked to do would be impossible when confronted by issues and requirements I should have thought about two years ago and submitted a fully costed business plan with three Courses of Action, etc. In short, there were opportunities lost and others seized. It all came down to the project and how the project was executed, because in Canada projects are what work. Did anyone miss my emphasis on projects?

Let's rejoice in the small victories with Holy Roller. A) She is back on display, B) people know her name and recall the tagline part of her story, C) public institutions like Fanshawe College threw their weight behind the project, and D) Holy Roller has had some of the TLC she's been missing over the years. Sure, everyone would have done it differently but complaining here didn't seem to change much after the project was underway.

BTW, the Holy Roller beer wasn't hard to pour into a glass and manage to get down my throat.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

Let's rejoice in the small victories with Holy Roller. A) She is back on display, B) people know her name and recall the tagline part of her story, C) public institutions like Fanshawe College threw their weight behind the project, and D) Holy Roller has had some of the TLC she's been missing over the years. Sure, everyone would have done it differently but complaining here didn't seem to change much after the project was underway.

Terry, frankly I am not sure there is anything to rejoice about. Good money, 8000 hours and original parts were needlessly wasted on a four-year project only to return the vehicle back outside were it will once again be ravaged by the elements and as we have just seen, also vandalized. I suspect the average person in London has no idea what Holy Roller is, unless of course they know something about the current vandalism charges. It is great that Fanshawe College threw their weight behind the project; but judging from the minimal amount of internet content, no-one seemed interested to document their work. From what I have read, there appeared to be more interest in some coins found in the hull then in the tank itself.

I agree that complaining on this forum did not change anything although I suspect that the posted comments are known within the project team.

Too bad really, as four years ago the team started with the clean slate and could have achieved something more then just returning the tank back to the park. Sadly, no-one could see past the same ol' play-book of sticking military vehicles in a park.

[Ed Storey]

That was Legion Magazine's title not mine in their July/August Artifacts story about Holy Roller. Apparently I am one of the people who just does not understand how spending $227,928, providing 8000 hours of work and completely replacing the original wartime running gear and tracks for a new set and then plunking the tank back out in a park to continue to be ravaged by the weather is somehow a cost effective and pratical way to encourage rememberance. It was news to me that the original wartime track was turned into 60 iron models, I wonder who they went to?

Too bad the gatekeepers of this artifact were too wrapped up in their own hubris to see beyond the trees in the park to envision the value of placing this historic vehicle on some form of permanent indoor display. Mind you, what can you expect from people who think that preservation is replacing the original tracks and running gear and then turning them into models.

[tankbarrell]

As well as stripping out much of the original interior and throwing it all in a skip.