Nice T16 pics...but help identify Dutch AT Gun

[bubbaandshaff]

The second page of specifications from the Wilder Museum Manual.

[bubbaandshaff]

One of the great things about the Wilder manual is the amount of near-blueprint quality drawings. Every majaor assembly, and most of the sub-assemblies are drawn sectioned. Although there are very few measurments, just having a picture can be helpful.

[bubbaandshaff]

Here is a right side view of the NF&O Gun. Note the breech operating handle is not original. The original had a fatter handle, as well as a clutch assembly to allow you to force the close the breech closed on a tight shell.

[bubbaandshaff]

Here is a left side view. Note the telescope does not appear to be original to the gun.

[bubbaandshaff]

Plaque attached to breech shield.

[bubbaandshaff]

Breech view of the NF&O gun. Note the brake lines running back to the wheels.

[bubbaandshaff]

View from the right rear. The towing arrangement with the NF&O Limber called for the guns towing lunette to be connected to the limber in a vertical position. It was then pinned together, similar to a bicycle chain.

[bubbaandshaff]

Front of the NF&O gun. Note that the lower shield is missing. Luckily there is a drawing of it in the Wilder Museum manual, so it shouldn't be hard to make.

[bubbaandshaff]

Nice view from the Left Rear. Note the extremely complicated Surge Brake Assembly.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by bubbaandshaff
Here are some pictures that were taken over the weekend.

Chris, thanks a lot for sharing these pictures and all the information with us.
You are to be commended for taking care of an obscure piece of our heritage.

Regards,
Hanno
The Netherlands

[nuyt]

Hi Chris, thanks for all that! I agree with Hanno: you brought back a piece of Dutch military heritage.

Back to those guns: what do you reckon so far would be your opinion on the quality of these guns.
Were they any good, advanced, hardhitting or nothing special, a stop gap measure?
Could you give us some sort of overall appraisal of the NF&O At guns, with the info you have now? Esoecially compared to the standard US 37mm guns?

Greetings,
Nuyt

Overvalwagens!

[Tony Smith]

Chris, looks like great fun plinking with the 37mm! It's still a bit of a puzzle how the NEI Nat Forge gun got to Australia. I don't think it was brought by the US Army, who certainly kept standardised with the regular 37mm AT gun, as this pic from the AWM database shows. I haven't found any other pics in the AWM's collection showing displaced NEI A/T guns coming to Australia.

ID Number: 150479
Maker: Bottomley, Clifford
Date made: September 1942
Physical description: Black & white
Summary: Townsville, Qld. September 1942. American troops give a demonstration of anti-tank tactics. The jeep (left background) has brought the gun crew and towed the 37mm anti-tank gun to the action station. Meanwhile, a soldier in a second jeep, armed with an anti-aircraft gun prepares to defend the position against an enemy attack.

[bubbaandshaff]

Thanks Tony. Anytime we go shooting my daughter insists she get some "trigger time."

I happened to also be searching the AWM photo archive this weekend, and ran across the same photo. I searched for "37mm," "anti-tank," "Java," "Suriname," and "Curacao." I could not find any photos of the Dutch gun, however there were some nice photos of 2pdrs and a couple of 25mm French Hotchkiss M1934 AT guns. One interesting fact that I learned was that the Australians called the P.I.A.T. the P.I.T.A. (Projector, Infantry, Tank Attack). I had never heard this before.

Speaking of PIAT/PITAs, does anyone have info on the PIAT subcaliber device. Ours has the filler tray that latches in the bomb trough, but I have never seen what it is used with.

I will talk with the Senior Ordnance Articifer and get his opinions on the quality of these guns.

Here is the only other photograph I could find in the AWM database. Obviously a US M3.

[Tony Smith]

The AWM is often prone to making errors in captions, so sometimes you have to take them with a grain of salt, however, that said the terms "Anti-Tank" and "Tank Attack" seem to have been fairly interchangable in Australian Army usage. This means you will often find examples like references to "4th Anti Tank Regiment" and also "4th Tank Attack Regiment", this being the one, self-same unit. Confusing? When talking about ordnance, it would seem logical to use the official nomenclature when referring to something, but some bright spark thought up the phrase "Tank Attack" as sounding more agressive, and it found it's way into all sorts of descriptions.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
It's still a bit of a puzzle how the NEI Nat Forge gun got to Australia.

They must have arrived as 'refugee cargo' in Australia: they were still at sea when the Netherlands East Indies fell to the rapid Japanese advance. Consequently, the shipments were diverted to Australia. This is how Australia got 141 light tanks (and many other vehicles) ordered by the NEI Army as well.

HTH,
Hanno

[Leland]

As of 13 Jun 42 three ships carrying 37mm AT guns intended for the KNIL had in fact unload in Australia instead.

SS Tabian carried four guns
SS Mapia carried two guns
SS Bantam carried four guns.

All were handed over to the Dutch in Australia.

It would be interesting to know when the standard US barrels, breeches, recoil, etc. were put on the carriages of the NF&O weapons.

Lee Ness

[bubbaandshaff]

From the pictures vonryan's gun, and the little I have heard about these Australian guns, I would wager that standard US barrels, breaches, and recoil mechanisms were never "officially" put on the NF&O guns. There are several reasons for this.

1. From the pictures there is no physical connection between the recoiling parts (breech and barrel) and the recoil mech. Thus, if the gun were fired, the barrel would recoil back and end up in the dirt.


2. The breech ring indicates that this 37mm gun is from a vehicle mount (M5 or M6). And, the breech-operating handle appears to be non-standard. The axle appears to be a light trailer axle. Definitely not a M3 AT Gun axle. Also the surge brake assembly appears to have been replaced by a castor wheel.


3. Another collector in Australia, who had a few of these guns, told us that he rescued his guns from a junkyard. Vonryan’s guns looks like maybe a junkyard operator wanted a cannon to display in his yard. He had a lot of various cannon and military vehicle parts, so he made himself a cannon. This is purely speculation on my part.

[Leland]

Chris,

I had not seen that upper photo. You may well be right.

I was working on deductive logic, always an adventure into the swamp.

My thinking was that since the National Forge gun could not fire standard US ammunition without being modified (and it was extremely unlikely any of the guns in Australia would be shipped back to the US for that), it was possible someone got the bright idea to put the standard US ordnance from a light tank onto the mount to create a gun for which ammunition would be available.

However, you are probably right. A jury-rig job by a junkyard dealer.

Lee

[Andrew Morrison]

Some time ago read an official history of US 'PT' boats in the Pacific.

What might be of interest here is that I seem to remember that in 1942 they experimented with fitting 37 mm guns to the front deck of these boats. In the US it was thought that the wooden decks could not withstand the recoil of a large calibre gun. Despite this they were obtained and fitted to the boats in Queensland where the necessary modifications were completed. This was done while they were completing their training before moving up.

As these guns were obtained from the Australian military might they have been some of these Dutch guns which to the Australians were of an orphan calibre that did not fit the local supply chain?

[bubbaandshaff]

Andrew, very interesting information. My father had a US M3 37mm AT Gun that was mounted on a large tripod. It appeared to be a factory job, and was painted a navy gray. The gun was basically removed from a wheeled carriage, and placed in this tripod. I have heard of a similiar M3 gun on tripod, on display in the New England area (USA). I can't post any pics right now, but my father moniters this site and might be able to post a pic of his M3 navy gun. Take Care

Chris Shaffer
Baghdad, Iraq

[bubbaandshaff]

Alex van de Wetering has posted some new pictures of surviving NF&O 37mm AT Guns in the Armor Forum.

Check out Otter in Paramaribo, Surinam

There are two pictures showing a NF&O 37mm AT Guns, appaerently taken at Paramaribo, Surinam recently.

Heres One


Anyone else dug up any info on these guns recently? Since I am in Iraq, my research is limited to what can be done via the internet.

Take Care, Chris

[nuyt]

Hi Chris,

I am in Surinam right now and took some pics at the site two days ago. There are actually two of these guns, the other one I think in slightly better shape. When I am back I will post the pics.

A guide at the site, a neglected historical museum called Fort Nieuw Amsterdam, was aware of the anti-tank guns (but not of the historical background we know) and suggested more may still be in use or in reserve with the Surinam National Army!

The guns were probably stationed at the fort as well during WW2 as there were many fortified positions around the 18th century ramparts.

I am on a mission here and not sure if I have more time to dig around. Will try though.

Regards,
Nuyt

[bubbaandshaff]

Eric, I was amazed to see your post so soon after I linked the pictures from the Armor site. If you can make it back to the museum, could you take some pictures of the breech operating handle and telescope sight base? We have no pictures showing this, and the telescope we use in ours is not original. Are there any Limbers at the museum? That would be awesome if some were still in reserve.

FYI yesterdays Stars & Stripes cover showed the Dutch Army's transition of authority here in Iraq. Maybe they left some 37mm AT guns at the port.

Take Care, Chris
Baghdad, Iraq

[nuyt]

Unfortunately I could not make it back there.
Here are some pictures I took, some enlarged:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/messa...eid=1110897559

Kind regards,
Nuyt

[bubbaandshaff]

Here are some new pictures I found while searching the internet.


From the MLU Forum thread Re-Enactment Display.

Their website www.west-front.net shows these three pictures.

The gun in the last pictures, we have seen before. It has what appears to be a US M3 37mm AT Gun barrel and breech mechanism. The Gun in the above photo has the original Hub Caps, and from the picture, appears to be very well restored. Does anyone have any more info on the gun in the display?


From the Bonhams & Goodman auction notice of the Melbourne Military Museum . Notice in the bottom right appears to be a well preserved example of a NF&O 37mm Gun. Can anyone provide additional details of this gun?

Thanks to everyone who is following this thread.

Chris

[oztankboy]

Here are a few pics of 1 still with it's limber owned by a collector in Qld Australia. On display at a VE/VP 60 display.

Phil...

[oztankboy]

next...

[oztankboy]

and the last...

[Scrivo18]

Hi Chris

Re the 37mm Anti Tank Gun at the Melbourne Tank Museum auction, It was delivered to my shed this morning.

It will be placed near my M3 Stuart that is also refuge cargo into Australia.

What a great thread, I will be studying this more closly when I get a chance, as I did not know how unusual these 37mm's are.

My gun has had a barrel made up from a Bofors Barrel, and the breach has been cast.

I will try to organise some photos, when I get more of a chance.

Tim Scriven

[oztankboy]

Hi there!

Tim the last few shots here are some of the ones i'll be sending to you buy will be higher resolution.

Phil...