Canadian Chevrolet Maple Leaf 4x4 artillery tractors?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Nuyt, can you tell me what the website or seller's address is please as I would like to purchase the same???

[nuyt]

http://www.matildasboek.nl/2ehands_geschiedenis4.asp



that's the link!


or try antiqbook.nl and type in the author's name (you'll find two different sellers)

good luck
Nuyt

[Bill Murray]

I will return later, but somebody please buy the bloody book!!!
I will pay for it if it turns out to be a nonrunner and contribute if it turns out to be a find. Got to share the pics though.
Bill

[nuyt]

Bill,
I allready ordered one.
let's wait and see

David,

The Maple Leaf as above looks suspiciously similar to this 1939 GMC Model 4930 4x4 chassis as bodied by DAF for Metropolitan Dutch Army (Wheels and Tracks 74).

The same page shows group of five GMC/Trado III chassis with rhd for NEI, that indeed have GENERAL MOTORS TRUCK on the bonnet sides.

As far as Chevrolet COE trucks are concerned I am apart from 4x4's also inclined to look for deliveries of Chevrolet 4x2 COE's, such as these '39 VF:

http://www.ifrance.com/trombinoscar/...et/cv3902.html

Regards,
Nuyt

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The W & T photo is of a 1939-40 Model ACK-352 I think...if it does not have the DAF-Trado gear of course! Note the similar but different 1939 + 1940 front grille with less, thicker, horizontal bars. The wheels differ from the Maple Leaf equivalent, and the front bumper & tyres as well..the tyres look Canadian pattern to this non-expert.

Basically what we have in the GMC is the Pontiac, Mi-designed and built 4 x 4 that was shown to the military in 1939 in Ontario.

The French website is wrong in that the first COE factory Chevrolets debuted in 1937 in Canada, and for export from Pontiac, Michigan as they were clones of the GMC and Oldsmobile COE 1937 models, with Chevrolet or Hercules diesels.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

"Beste David,

If you don't understand my mail, please let me know so I can translate!

Heel toevallig is het boek Geschiedenis van General Motors A5823 een half uur voor u verkocht. We verwijderen een paar keer per week verkochte boeken van onze site, maar hier kunnen we niet tegenop.

Het zou heel goed kunnen dat we het boek nog een keer in onze voorraad hebben, maar we hebben het zo snel niet kunnen vinden (we hebben alletwee dat vermoeden).
We zullen morgen of maandag goed zoeken en u dan ook mailen of we het wel of niet nog eens op voorraad hebben.

Tot binnenkort.
Prettige paasdagen,
Mathilde van der Sman"

So, last copy sold for now??? Well done Nuyt. Whilst French is no problem to me, I thought I would use a translation programme to send a message in lingua-franca as well as English.

[nuyt]

yeah, that was me, I had expected you had bought it already yesterday!
But like I said there is another one for sale at antiqbook.nl
Type in the author's name: sicco de jong and scroll down a bit.
I think the seller is Kok (I only bought the cheapest one, sorry).

Nuyt

[Bill Murray]

Well done Nuyt!!! Hope it has good photos.

While we are on the subject, I have two books that are surplus to my needs and that I would sell to any of you Flying Dutchmen if they are of interest.

1. Daar komen de Canadezen!
By Peter Veldheer 1982
Softbound. 237 pages probably 100+ photos none great but
probably none published before either in the other enthusiast
type books. CMPs, Carriers, ACs, Macks and so on

2. De Technische Loopbaan van H.J. Van Doorne.
I assume it was published by DAF. 1954
Hardbound over 100 pages. Some pages have come loose but
are not damaged. This is a rather dry and very technical book
dealing with Herr Van Doorne's personal history, his inventions
and patents and so on. Half of the book is text, half is photos
and cover not only military vehicles (not the best coverage) but
also trailers, civilian vehicles, trailer couplings and so on.
As with David, I can do all the Scandinavian languages as well
as the romance languages but Dutch leaves me far from shore.


I know I paid more than $20 US each for them 20-30 years ago but would sell them for $20 US plus $10 shipping each. If that is not a fair price (if they can be purchased cheaper in Holland) let me know as they should return to their homeland and not sit unread on my bookshelf.

Let me know if there is some interest.
Bill

[Bill Murray]

Hanno:

Your source: photos documenten en Indie was fabulous, especially all of the Chevrolet vehicles we so seldom see.
While the subject matter is certainly sad, it would seem to be that there were a number of photos of what I think were military funerals using Chevs as the casket bearer.

As a point of interest, your posting of that site made me go to the cellar again and fighting the spiders and now the mice, to look through a number of photo alblums my father gave to me that he took during his tour of duty in China 1937-1940. They show the same sort of life style for the expatriates as well as a lot of how China was in those days in general. Sadly, only a few vehicle photos which I will scan in when I get my scanner going. As a side note, if anyone here is into rikshaws (spelling?) my father seemed to be fascinated with them and there are lots of photos of me and my mother being squired around Peking (Beijing now) by various rikshaw drivers.

I also found a photo alblum from Dad during his stint in Iceland in 1941-1942 and there is one photo of an MH 4X4 that I will post eventually. It is the same vehicle Fred Crismon had in his book but it is not a posed shot, it is on an Icelandic road.

Well, got to go for now.
Bill

[nuyt]

Hi guys,

Last week I paid a visit to th DAF Museum, while passing through Eindhoven.

I inspected the only survivor Trado bogey on show there, including the winch. The info said that both Dutch Army and KNIL in the NEI had these Trado's in stock so they were able to convert vehicles into 4x4 or 6x4 themselves.

So, I said before the Maple Leaf that was tested out there on Java was already equipped with a DAF winch and I suggested the vehicle had come through Europe. More likely now is that the Maple Leaf did come straight from a factory in North America and the DAF winch was installed by KNIL workshops in Bandung. It is also possible that the Ford 6x4 that was tested at the same time did have its Trado installed at the same place (but of course it could have been shipped from Europe just like the other vehicles that were tested).

Meanwhile I made contact with the DAF archives staff, who will send me some documentation on the Trado-converted Fords and Chevrolets. I will keep you all informed.

I bought some DAF brochures on inventions by Van Doorne and the military products.

I also received the Dutch GM book, which is disappointing regarding trucks and military production (nothing).

On the other hand I found: Ford in Nederland, 1924-1999). Not much either, but definitely the more interesting text. No word on any production facility in the NEI.

HTH
Nuyt

[nuyt]

The cowl is just visible on this AWM picture.
It depicts KNIL Mountain artillery troops on Java, 1940. Proof that not just Howitser and Field artillery battalions were equipped with ML tractors but also at least one battalion of Mountain Art. Interesting.
Nuyt

[nuyt]

On the picture above you can see the KNIL ML tractor did not have indicators (is this the right English word?) on the mudguards. These are clearly visible on the Vanderveen picture posted further above.
Is this any clue to you David of production type or origin?

Cheers,
Nuyt

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Could be a 1939 or possibly 1940 GMC or Chevrolet! I favour the former...the GMC grille was similar to the Chevrolet's but had less bars and the bars were deeper. These would have been supplied by GM Java.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
The cowl is just visible on this AWM picture.
It depicts KNIL Mountain artillery troops on Java, 1940. Proof that not just Howitser and Field artillery battalions were equipped with ML tractors but also at least one battalion of Mountain Art. Interesting.
Nuyt

Both Mountain Arty Btns (A I Bg in Tjimahi and A II Bg in Salatiga) were in 1941 motorized aswell as the 7th Mountain Arty Bty formed upon mobilization with the training guns of Depot Mobiele Artillerie (DMA) - Mobile Arty Depot - in Tjimahi.

[nuyt]

for that.

We dont know how many 4x4 Canadian Chevrolets were ordered by KNIL, but we can now assume the number of vehicles must have been relatively high.

-Considering KNIL knew by the time of ordering that they would need vehicles for 1 how battalion, two field, two mountain and three AA, that would have meant at least 8x12=96 trucks (though some in the 6x6 version), not counting reserve and depot units.

-Considering KNIL had ordered another howitzer battalion (16 Bofors 105mm guns), you could add another 12 vehicles (not counting reserve and depot guns).

-Considering that dozens more 80mm Bofors guns had been ordered (part of which were mobile guns, part fixed), as well as a total of 72 40mm Bofors (of which eventually 40 were delivered, not sure if all were mobile), add another couple of dozen trucks to the list.

That would mean that total needs for4x4 and 6x6 tractors would have been at least 150, max 200!

Since truck deliveries from Canada (or the US for that matter) would not have been stalled like the European gun orders (due to the war and neutral policies of the Swedish govt), I would say that KNIL received all Canadian trucks as ordered.

Nuyt

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
for that.

We dont know how many 4x4 Canadian Chevrolets were ordered by KNIL, but we can now assume the number of vehicles must have been relatively high.

-Considering KNIL knew by the time of ordering that they would need vehicles for 1 how battalion, two field, two mountain and three AA, that would have meant at least 8x12=96 trucks (though some in the 6x6 version), not counting reserve and depot units.

-Considering KNIL had ordered another howitzer battalion (16 Bofors 105mm guns), you could add another 12 vehicles (not counting reserve and depot guns).

-Considering that dozens more 80mm Bofors guns had been ordered (part of which were mobile guns, part fixed), as well as a total of 72 40mm Bofors (of which eventually 40 were delivered, not sure if all were mobile), add another couple of dozen trucks to the list.

That would mean that total needs for4x4 and 6x6 tractors would have been at least 150, max 200!

Since truck deliveries from Canada (or the US for that matter) would not have been stalled like the European gun orders (due to the war and neutral policies of the Swedish govt), I would say that KNIL received all Canadian trucks as ordered.

Nuyt

16 howitzers for the KNIL were placed under embargo by the Sw Govt becaming 3rd Btn of 4th Arty Regt (Östersund) and known as m/40 H (H = Holland).

4 AA guns 80 mm KNIL were also placed under embargo.

An KNIL Arty Btn needed 12 trucks for the guns, 4 for ammo and another 12 for the ammo column = 28. The howitzer Btn should need 6 x 6 trucks.

Now the time has come the walrus said:

Stellan

[nuyt]

Thanks Stellan for that.

So we know pretty sure KNIL needed and ordered and probably received some 200 (or more?) Maple Leaf 4x4 trucks (some to be converted to 6x6 by Trado bogies) in or around 1939/1940.

The order was to Canada (since they were Maple Leaf's)?
It ran possibly through GM Java?

Such a substantial and conspicious order must have made it to some sales listings, archives or even a local company historian!

David,

I remember you mentioned once a Canadian colleague...
Could we contact him or her somehow to see if (s)he can tell us more about the KNIL order?

Cheers
Nuyt

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
Thanks Stellan for that.

So we know pretty sure KNIL needed and ordered and probably received some 200 (or more?) Maple Leaf 4x4 trucks (some to be converted to 6x6 by Trado bogies) in or around 1939/1940.

The order was to Canada (since they were Maple Leaf's)?
It ran possibly through GM Java?

Such a substantial and conspicious order must have made it to some sales listings, archives or even a local company historian!

David,

I remember you mentioned once a Canadian colleague...
Could we contact him or her somehow to see if (s)he can tell us more about the KNIL order?

Cheers
Nuyt

Dear Nuyt,

As I understand 1st Field Arty Btn (A I Vd, Malang) and 1st Howitzer Btn (A I Hw, Weltevreden) were both motorized in the 1920-ies. Perhaps some of the old trucks (1930-vintage) were still running 1941-42.

But we still have the two Mountain Arty Btns and the reinstated A II Vd to motorize.

Plus an obscure Btn 12 - 75 mm M/1911 Krupp semi-mobile Btn "Afd Mobiele Stellingartillerie" in Sorerabaja to count with.

Finally A I Vd sent a 4 - 75 mm Bty L/30 M/1911-33 Krupp on the "Silly expedition" (J.J. Nortiers words) to Timor Dilly.

Groeten,

Stellan

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Nuyt, in theory all GM of Canada records do not exist now. There just may be some files in the National Archives provided that the Department of National Defence wree involved in some way. At this juncture [i.e. now] I have no idea where to look but as I have had a nice evening oit with the benefit of lovely cold Australian Jacob's Creek white wine, Belgian Stella Artois beer, and Pizza Hut pizza to make a truly international meal, I will cogitate further.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I thought that I ought to mention that after June 1940 General Motors Corporation had two offices dealing with military vehicle sales, ostensibly because of US Government conracts. However GM Corp and also General Motors Overseas Operations under Graeme K Howard had offices in New York City. The NYC office of GMOO handled all export military sales, including those that were passed on to Oshawa. The other military plants were Flint, Michigan, [Chevrolet], Pontiac, Michigan [GMC], and also Tarrytown, NY,. CKD Chevrolets were supplied from Oshawa, Ontario, Bloomfield Chevroleet Boxing Plant, New Jersey, and Pontiac [GMC].

[nuyt]

As I understand 1st Field Arty Btn (A I Vd, Malang) and 1st Howitzer Btn (A I Hw, Weltevreden) were both motorized in the 1920-ies. Perhaps some of the old trucks (1930-vintage) were still running 1941-42.

These are the two battalions that had Maple Leaf's for sure. Then there is the Mountain artillery of which the picture above is some evidence. And there is a film (KNIL Nieuw Leger) that shows Bofors guns in action with Maple Leaf tractors. Given the extra gun orders by KNIL I am pretty confident there must have been a substantial order to GM.

CKD Chevrolets were supplied from Oshawa, Ontario, Bloomfield Chevroleet Boxing Plant, New Jersey, and Pontiac [GMC].

Given the fact that the KNIL Arsenal in Bandung was used to equip, body and convert lots of military vehicles, I am sure we are looking for some CKD or PKD delivery to KNIL (or the NEI govt, or the NEI Ordnance Commission, predecessor of the NPC).
But then again the ML's may have been civilian trucks, just like the old 6x4 GMC's had been...

Cheers,
Nuyt

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

A new attempt to send pictures.

It did work! The pic shows 1st Field Arty Bn (A I Vd, Malang) about 1934.

What type of trucks?

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

1934 1st Howitzer Bn (A I Hw). Reg nr B 4348 (B=Batavia).

They are probably heading for Batoedjadar firing range.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

This pic is from 1938. 1st Field Arty Bn (A I Vd, Malang) on manoevers to Batoe. Reg nr N 5208 (N=Malang).

The KNIL did not have petrol trucks but bought petrol on the civilian market.

Here they are buying from a Chinese store (Toko = store in Indonesian). Phing is the name of the store owner.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

1938 and 1st Field Arty Bn. The first truck nr N 5243 (N=Malang), is obviously of a slightly different type and looking more "modern".

[nuyt]

Hey Stellan, keep it up, fantastic!

These are the GMC trucks, converted (bodied) by the KNIL arsenal at Bandung, serving from around 1932-1940.

I think there were also ammunition trucks of the same type.

Check out my questions and David Haywards replies at the ¨Chevrolet ID help needed¨ thread on the Softskin forum.

The lead truck in the last picture I think is probably a Staff car of the older type.

Many regards,
Nuyt

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I suggest GMC 6 x 4 of circa 1932-3 vintage.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I suggest GMC 6 x 4 of circa 1932-3 vintage.

Thank you!

Beeing an infantryman (never motorized) I know nothing about vehicles.

So where were those GMC:s built? How did they get to NEI?

(In 1963 the R Sw Army trusted me with a GMC 6x6 truck - surplus WW II - in Sweden known as M/46).

Greetings,

Stellan

[Bill Murray]

Stellan:

Ett jaette bra jobb:

If you have followed some of my participation on these threads of late, you will have found a fellow computer Klutz.

As Hanno can verify, I have been fighting the computer maze for many, many months and have only of late been able to post photos in one way or the other. I congratulate you for learning as I have how to do at least the basics.

To your photos, considering the vast global interest in vehicles used by the Netherlands in the NEI, I am quite sure you have brought to us photos that otherwise would never have been available to "the general public".

For the moment, I will tend to agree that the 6X4 vehicles you posted are GMC T4 models. The only reason I am not totally sure is the photos show a different cab and body (always a problem) compared to the USA versions. On the other hand, the wheels have the distinctive GMC "look" as regards the holes in the wheels and as well the petrol tank looks the same as on several photos I have of this vehicle from Bart Vanderveens book and as well Fred Crismons book on US vehicles.

On another note, Pat and I are leaving tomorrow for a 2400 mile (4000km) trip to our annual convention with the HobbyTown USA corporate group. Always a nice excuse to exercise my 2002 Lincoln Blackwood Pickup

Sad to say, the convention is in Lincoln Nebraska which is still stuck in the 20th Century. So, no internet connection for me for a week. They still use dial up telephones and still have long distance operators. As well, unless it has changed since last year, they still have only black and white TV and no cell phone service.

So, I will be out of touch for the next 10 days or so but please keep learning how to post/scan photos as you are on to some really good stuff.

MVH

Bill

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Thank you Bill,


The KNIL often made cabs and bodys according to their own specifications.

So you are going to Nebraska? I was there only once - in 1978 - Ogalala (18th Century).

Attached please find a Bty of 1st How Bn on parade in Waterlooplein Batavia/Jakarta somtime between 1924 and 1934.

Have a nice and safe journey to and from Lincoln,

Stellan