Bedford military-front and civvy-front types

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Where and when was this picture taken, please?

Hanno,

I would guess it is in Liverpool and is one of the Persons photos, because of the Ford SP Bofors in the background, as they have shown up in other photos from the series.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Yes. it's in the Pearson's of Liverpol book out next year (I hope).
It#s taken directly outside one of their wartime premises.

[david moore]

David
In your school dinners photo - note the nice Velocette water-cooled motor bike propped up by the road side. In Wilts where I come from, they were used by the local cops.

Originally posted by david moore
David
In your school dinners photo - note the nice Velocette water-cooled motor bike propped up by the road side. In Wilts where I come from, they were used by the local cops.

All the UK cops used them as local transport and nation-wide they were known as a Noddy Bike!

The picture has to be 1948 onwards as the first LE Velocette made a debut at the Motor Cycle Show of that year.

R.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Yes, the Met Police had them and I remember them being used in the mid-1960s...the coppers had special helmets.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Yes. it's in the Pearson's of Liverpol book out next year (I hope).
It#s taken directly outside one of their wartime premises.

Thanks David (and Richard).

Can I presume the 20-cwt trailer was assembled after shipping to the UK by Pearson's?

H.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Yes, these trailers were 'assembled' by Pearsons and then the company acquired stocks post-war which they then sold off onto the civvy market. I was sent some years ago a copy of various classifieds by a farmer guy that bought a CMP or two from Pride & Clarke aka 'Slide & Shark', south London...P&C sold off Chevies and Fords as seen, but to go with your say former FAT for agricultural work, you could buy a host of ex-military trailers from numerous fly-by-night people.

This photo is I seem to recall a fomer military trailer.

For further pix see:

http://www.pearsons.moonfruit.com/

and to order a book:

http://home.btconnect.com/transpennine/pm03.html

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The F30B Bofors in the photo above had Ben Hur style (actually Willys) trailers originally when assembled by Pearsons, and then Pearsons rebuilt the trucks, sorry lorries, into self-propelled units, hence the census number prefix changed from 'H' to 'S'. The trailers were then issued to new GPAs etc.

Note the Allis-Chalmers HST behind the QL. On the right is a Canadian-order GPW in front of the 20-cwt trailer, hence its 'CMD'-prefixed serial number in the Pearsons'-allocated sequence. The company also assembled US and Britsh GPWs!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Yes, these trailers were 'assembled' by Pearsons and then the company acquired stocks post-war which they then sold off onto the civvy market.
(...)
This photo is I seem to recall a fomer military trailer.

Thanks. The trailer pictured is an American-built 1-ton 2-wheeled cargo trailer, commonly known as the "Ben Hur Trailer" (see pic below).

The Canadian 20-cwt trailer was in some roles the equivalent of this trailer, although the US 1-ton trailer was also used in various roles by Commonwealth units.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
and to order a book:
http://home.btconnect.com/transpennine/pm03.html

I have recently re-expressed my interest with Mr Earnshaw and am awaiting further news about a possible publication date.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward in wartime pictures of 20-cwt trailers
The F30B Bofors in the photo above had Ben Hur style (actually Willys) trailers originally when assembled by Pearsons, and then Pearsons rebuilt the trucks, sorry lorries, into self-propelled units, hence the census number prefix changed from 'H' to 'S'. The trailers were then issued to new GPAs etc.

I cannot follow your reasoning here. No trucks/lorries were designated Tractors because they were towing 1-ton Ben Hur, or any other type of trailer. Most trucks, from the measily 5-cwt upward, were fitted with towing hitches to tow trailers.
If those F30's were re-numbered, it cannot have been due to those trailers being no longer towed by them.

On the right is a Canadian-order GPA in front of the 20-cwt trailer, hence its 'CMD'-prefixed serial number in the Pearsons'-allocated sequence. The company also assembled US and Britsh GPAs!

I presume you mean Ford GPWs as in standard jeeps as opposed to amphibious jeeps, the Ford GPA?

H.

[lynx42]

David,
Don't think the Jeep with the trailer will float too well. So I guess it's a GPW not a GPA. Thanks for the id's on the others.
Rick

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Sorry, Ford GPW! No evidence of any GPAs being assembled yet they probably were...though DUKWs were!

As regards the Bofors, they were evidently from the batches:

H 5327001 to 5327600 S/M 2487 Tractor 4x4 Lt AA

H 5589105 to 5589404 S/M 2487 Tractor 4x4 Light AA

and the photos show that they clearly were 'tractors' in the sense that they towed allocated trailers. However, on apparent rebuild in 1944 they had lost their trailers and were re-listed to 'self-propelled' and had lost their trailers, which were it seems re-allocated. Unless the original designation as 'tractors' was erroneous as all CMPs and many other vehicles had hitches, whch was later corrrected, I cannot personally see any other reason. However I have not seen any hard evidence and the point is extremely well-made and taken. In fact it deserves to be considered anew! What do others think please?

However, may I please ask additionally as I want to get the book caption correct: are the trailers in the photo Ben Hur or Canadian 20-cwt as the former has been suggested before of course. I am attaching below a photo of a Willys to compare!

Thanks very much for the input. I am sure that my co-author Professor Alan Earnshaw and myself would wish to recognise the various contributions through MLU as regards captions and identification, come publication time.

Here's the line-up again.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Here's a close-up of a Willys 1-ton trailer (S/M 6288)

Side view

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

These might though! Interesting whether:

P 5219692 to 5219876 and
P 5219881 5219981 to S/M 2820

were assembled by Pearsons or any of the batches.

The capton is:
"8 February 1944 GMC ‘Amphibian 2½ ton 6 x 6 G/S’ Model DUKW-353 or ‘Ducks’, to Ministry of Supply Demand S/M 2849 posed for the camera. The front vehicle is P 5576524 and the convoy of four are awaiting entering the Pearsons works for minor modifications after their acceptance trials at Ainsdale near Southport."

I have posted photos of trailers on the other thread.

[gordon]

As the ex-owner of hull number 14962 I can tell you they wont have been.

Unlike many other vehicles, the structure and funtioning of a DUKW is such that it would absolutely not lend itself to building, packing, single or twin unit packs, or even partial dissassembly as there is too much to get bent / damaged / wrecked, and way too much sealing integrity to get re-established.


If you were shipping DUKWs in quantity, the absolute most you would do to them would be to pull the windscreens, stretcher side frames, loose tools, deck mounted kit, tarpaulins and hood frame and stow it all boxed in the back, if you were going absolutely wild you might pull the headlights and stow them too.

Anything else would leave you with a seven ton brick with too many damage possibilities - you wouldn't even take the wheels off and put it on a transit frame - absolutely no point.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Gordon, thanks for the very interesting comments. This raises the query whether GPA and DUKW vehicles shipped to the UK were in some way, any way 'disassembled'? Photos show that GMC CCKW trucks were shipped dismantled, and presumably crated-up and gthen assembled. Were the DUKWs then shipped complete though with removable items stowed away to reduce shipping space? At the 'assembly' or rather 'commissioning' facility these would have all been put back, and if there was any oil-based protection removed, fluids added, and then acceptance and apparently rectification work carried-out prior to hand-over.
Would this have also applied to GPAs?

I must add that one photo in the collection reputedly showed crates being moved that previously held DUKWs. This may have been suggested by a former employee but we now know that the cartes were for Canadian Dodge D60 lorries and Diamond Ts.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
raises the query whether GPA and DUKW vehicles shipped to the UK were in some way, any way 'disassembled'? Photos show that GMC CCKW trucks were shipped dismantled, and presumably crated-up and gthen assembled. Were the DUKWs then shipped complete though with removable items stowed away to reduce shipping space?

David,

The answer may be in the DUKW TM (technical manual). In a lot of the TM's for vehicles, shipping and crating instructions are shown at the end, in detail. My copy of the DUKW TM is a very well used one with several outer pages missing, so I do not know if this info is actaully in the book or not. Somebody who has a complete copy may have the answer.

[gordon]

I have no definite information, but a GPA is small enough to crate. You could pull the wheels and the top, stow everything inside, and then preserve and crate pretty much like a jeep. No point in a twin unit pack or the like as the hull is one piece, and that piece would contain pretty much all the shipping volume, so if you stripped two GPAs you'd actually have more volume to ship than if you left them in one piece, plus a whole pile of work to do.

DUKW is pretty much the same, with a one-piece hull, plus the extra disadvantage that it is too big to crate in any meaningful sense. It would only make sense to remove, crate, protect, and stow the loose items (including the windscreen probably) drain the fuel and coolant, disconnect the battery, and maybe seal the air cleaner intake. That way you could roll and steer it. No point in draining the other fluids as they will tolerate a fair range of movement before anything spills, you would just top up as part of recommisioning.

It is my undertanding that jeeps, Dodges, GMCs were shipped in such quantities that it was worth shipping components and reassembling on site. Vehicles larger than the standard 2.5 ton 6 x 6 I think were normally shipped in one piece, with loose items protected and stowed.

I've seen all sorts of crazy stacking, piling and leaning on each other trials to minimise shipping volume - I think on the Library of Virginia Signal Corps archive, but above the size of a GMC 6 x 6 any gain in shipping volume would be offset by difficulty in handling and reassembly.

Do you know / have evidence to the contrary ? I'd be interested to see it.

[gordon]

http://lvaimage.lib.va.us/cgi-bin/ph...VTLS/SC/19/055

That looks like an experiment to me, as the barge pole is still in place (one of the loose items I would stow inside)

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
As regards the Bofors, they were evidently from the batches:

H 5327001 to 5327600 S/M 2487 Tractor 4x4 Lt AA

H 5589105 to 5589404 S/M 2487 Tractor 4x4 Light AA

David, the "Tractor 4x4 Light AA" you mention above are Light Anti-Artillery Tractors (LAAT). These were either F30 or F60S 134" wheelbase CMP tractors towing 40-mm Bofors Guns:


click to enlarge

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
the photos show that they clearly were 'tractors' in the sense that they towed allocated trailers. However, on apparent rebuild in 1944 they had lost their trailers and were re-listed to 'self-propelled' and had lost their trailers, which were it seems re-allocated. Unless the original designation as 'tractors' was erroneous as all CMPs and many other vehicles had hitches, whch was later corrrected, I cannot personally see any other reason

What exact details do you know about the "apparent rebuild" in 1944?

Now, are you implying Pearsons received the batches of LAATs listed above to rework into the F60B? That would entail a considerable amount of work, especially if they were supplied 30-cwt chassis to begin with.

Until now I assumed the F60B was built as new in Canada, so any information showing these were (also?) rebuilt from existing trucks would be news to me.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
the photos show that they clearly were 'tractors' in the sense that they towed allocated trailers.

The vehicles in the pictures are self-propelled gun mounts, not tractors, towing American 1-ton 2-wheeled cargo trailers, commonly known as the "Ben Hur" trailer. Ben Hur was one of the manufacturers, Willys was another, as shown by your picture of the S/M 6288 one.

H.

[Keith Webb]

David, can you please post an enlarged pic of just the front of one of the F60B trucks in your pics from Pearsons?

I'd like to check the steering box.

There seems to be a lot of variation in the '60-cwt' chassis - for instance although all FGTs were supposed to be 3-ton chassis the ones delivered to us had the 375 steering boxes and small steering ends, yet had 20" wheels, 2 speed transfer cases and winches.

Also a large batch of 1943 F60Ls here were delivered with the light steering and 20" wheels. Our 1945 medium wheelbase ambulances had light steering and 16" wheels yet were marked as F60S on the nomenclature plates.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Thanks very much for the input. I am sure that my co-author Professor Alan Earnshaw and myself would wish to recognise the various contributions through MLU as regards captions and identification, come publication time.

I'm sure some of the members here would be willing to proof-read the manuscript.

H.

[lynx42]

Originally Posted by gordon

http://lvaimage.lib.va.us/cgi-bin/ph...VTLS/SC/19/055

That looks like an experiment to me, as the barge pole is still in place (one of the loose items I would stow inside)

Interesting collection of photo's. Thanks for the link. Rick

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Hanno, I am very sorry but there seems to have been some misinterpretation on my part! I sincerely apologise and it is down to misreading my census lists...the correct, by 1944 designation was of course:
S 5582614 to 5582863
S 6184311 to 6184319 "SM 2645 S.P.M. 40 mm"

These Pearsons rebuilds included S 5582815 and I think 5582817, and date to late wartime. However, IWM photo KID 3087 clearly shows what I believe to be a newish vehicle, number H 5582702, and in fact the 1942? photo in Liverpool shows Census Number H 5582746 in front. So, these were originally classified as tractors, but rebuilt/converted to SPMs. Interestingly the same vehicles may have been 'assembled' by Pearsons and then rebuilt by them, although I use that word loosely. Certainly they were not towing any trailers in the late war photos. I am really open to suggestions as to the work done and perhaps a high-res scan might assist?

May I suggest that the designation as 'tractors' initially was inaccurate? I understand from notes from earlier discussions through MLU that the trailers housed the British-built "Predictor, AA, No.3, Mk1" or ‘Kerrison Predictor’ manufactured by ‘M & P. Ltd.’ . Would the late war 'work' have been in connection with the dropping of the trailer-borne equipment then?

Keith wants a view of the axles. I will see what I can do as my colleague has access to the very high resolution scans and I will endeavour to supply what I can.

As regards the Lt AA (SM 2487), I have a Xerox of a IWM photo of one of these presumably when new, photo KID 1968.

Thank you for the kind offer of assistance with proofing. Some work has been done already and it would be most helpful in due course.

Best wishes!

[Keith Webb]

Keith wants a view of the axles. I will see what I can do as my colleague has access to the very high resolution scans and I will endeavour to supply what I can.

Thanks David

Just something which shows the steering box would be all we need.

Keith

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Wilco. I have no idea though what detail is visible.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Another late-war shot showing self-propelled F30B units with a GPW towing a trailer, with a 20-cwt trailer?? in the road round the corner.