Nice T16 pics...but help identify Dutch AT Gun - Page 2

nuyt · #1 27-08-04, 17:31

Hi Hans, welcome!

Quote:

The Royal Dutch Navy ordered 40 pieces of the "37 mm 50 calibre semi automatic A.A. gun on naval Pedestal Mounts". All 40 were delivered to Java in 1941.

Do you know anything of their use in 1942? I recall vaguely one 37mm gun used with the Mahakan riverfleet, near Samarinda, Borneo. Several local OOB's list some Navy 3,7cm guns in 1942, but I have always assumed these were the 19th century sloop guns.

Quote:

As soon as I know who to post a photograph on this site I will put some examples of this gun in Suriname and Curacao.

Wow, looking forward to that! If posting pics is a problem let us know: prepare you pics on the mijn afbeeldingen section and downsize to 101 mb, than use the button bladeren when you compose you post and just click the picture you want from your mijn afbeeldingen section...

Cheers,
Nuyt

hansheesakkers · #2 27-08-04, 19:34

This picture is taken at Suriname during the period 1946-1948.

hansheesakkers · #3 27-08-04, 19:39

This picture is also in Suriname 1949

hansheesakkers · #4 27-08-04, 19:41

Taken at Curacao, around 1951.

hansheesakkers · #5 27-08-04, 19:42

Also Curacao around 1948.

hansheesakkers · #6 27-08-04, 19:47

Nice picture of around 1946-47 Suriname, it must have looked like this during the war.

nuyt · #7 27-08-04, 20:54

Hans, fantastic!
Thanks for that!
Do you have any idea if some of these guns survive today, like in the inventory of the Surinaams Nationaal Leger?
Enclosed is a picture of wartime Curacao where the second Ford GP seems to be towing a limbered gun.

Greetings
Nuyt

nuyt · #8 27-08-04, 21:15

From Wheels and Tracks 63:

37mm Limber Extra No. 6, National Forge & Ordnance, Irvine, P.A., USA. It comprises a box on an axle with hydraulic brakes, with racks for 10 37mm ammo trays, each carrying 20 rounds.

Nuyt

hansheesakkers · #9 30-08-04, 19:26

Quote:

Originally posted by ericnuyt
Hi Hans, welcome!
Do you know anything of their use in 1942? I recall vaguely one 37mm gun used with the Mahakan riverfleet, near Samarinda, Borneo. Several local OOB's list some Navy 3,7cm guns in 1942, but I have always assumed these were the 19th century sloop guns.

The book; "Schepen van de Kon. Marine in de 2de wereldoorlog, written by L.L. von Münching" talk aboutsix vessels built by Droogdok Maatschappij Tandjong Priok in 1938/39, 300 tons vessels with a crew of 17. Their armament consisted of two 3,7 cm guns(!) and two 7,7, mm m.g. The vessels are "Alor- Aroe- Bantam-Bogor-Ceram- Cheribon. Perhaps these are the A.A.C. guns. PERHAPS!! During my research at Naval Historical Section there was no information available.

hansheesakkers · #10 31-08-04, 15:16

Going through my files I found an old wartime picture, the quality is not so well but it shows a National Forge 37 mm gun used during a ceremony in 1943 at the coastal artillery battery "Steenrijk" at Curacao.

hans H.

vonryan · #11 03-09-04, 02:07

Hi Guys.
I am new to this furum so please bear with me.
I have one of these Dutch 37mm guns in Australia all be it not quite original.
It does not have the correct barrel in it (i think it is a barrel from an M3 American gun)
I also have some parts for two other guns and some information on the ones used in Australia.
Unfortunately i am at work in Pohnpei (see if you can figure where that is) and will not be back home untill around the end of next week.
I also have in my collection an Aussie made 25pr, 2pr and a 105 Otto Malera.
I also have a number of vehicles including a restored Ford Jeep for towing the 37mm a GMC CCKW 6 Dodges and an LP2 Carrier.

Unfortunately i have to go and do a bit of work, will get back again shortly and look for some pictures on my computer to post.

Great web site, hope i can get the hang of using it

Ciao
Martin.

bubbaandshaff · #12 03-09-04, 06:45

This thread has been great. The amount of information obtained is staggering.

Today I received an e-mail from Treena L Holmes Hulings, The Clinton E. Wilder Museum Manager, Irvine PA 16329, (814) 563-7773 or (814) 723-1795. www.kinzua.net/warrenhistory
The Wilder Museum was founded in 1990 in honor of the founder of the National Forge, and holds many historical artifacts from the company, including a 37mm AT Gun, and a NF&O Instruction Book on the gun. She said they have a large room filled with other historical documents, including contracts, however they don't have the funds/resources to catalog it all.

Cover of the NF&O Instruction Manual.

37mm Gun "in action" on the factory floor. Notice the NF&O Coveralls worn by the crew. It appears there is a Dutch Coat of Arms plaque on the breech shield like our gun. Look behind the "gunners" neck.

37mm Gun and Limber in towing configuration.

Line drawing from manual.

Here are two more pictures of our gun.

Thanks Again for everything that has been found. To the gentleman in Australia, I look forward to seeing and hearing about your gun (and others - we had a 2lb QF made by GM New South Wales). Keep sharing the information.

vonryan · #13 03-09-04, 08:22

Hi Chris.

My name is Martin Ryan and i live in Cairns North Queensland. I have been collecting for the last 20 years but now have to slow down a bit as i am running out of space.

The 37mm gun shown earlier is in a museum at Mudgerraba. Mudgerraba is in South East Queensland near the Gold Coast. The guy who runs the museum is a nice and very helpfull guy, he is or was trying to sell the gun and limber but was aking $24,000 AUD for it.

I think i have attached some photos of my gun, as you will see it does not have the correct axle or barrel. I do have parts of two other guns and one has half an axle which i may be able to restore but, i am still missing brakes and hubs etc.

bubbaandshaff · #14 04-09-04, 03:02

I don't know if the pictures are showing up in my posts. They showed up for me initially, however now they don't. Here is a link to the referenced pictures.
http://community.webshots.com/album/162742179dXvgrc

Mr. Ryan, there didn't appear to be any pictures posted to your reply. We are very interested in seeing your gun. Please try again, or e-mail me or PM me and I will help.

Thanks again for everyone’s help.

vonryan · #15 04-09-04, 06:19

Hi Chris.

Sorry, i am new to this site and still getting the hang of it. I have resized the pictures and hopefully they will come through this time.
As you can see, the gun does not have the correct axle or does it have the correct barrel.

Regards.
Martin.

vonryan · #16 04-09-04, 06:30

Another photo, i tried sending four in the last reply but i see that only one came out. It is possible to insert more than one photo???

vonryan · #17 04-09-04, 06:32

Another photo.

vonryan · #18 04-09-04, 06:36

I can not clearly read the numbers on the breach but will check them as soon as i get home.
This is a photo of a spare breach that i have and not the numbers on the gun shown in the other photos.
I shall get the numbers from the gun as well.

nuyt · #19 10-09-04, 22:03

Well, Chris,
That's some interesting piece of manual! Do you have any more pics?

Greetings
Nuyt

Overvalwagens!

Keith Webb · #20 10-09-04, 23:00

Hi Martin
What's the serial number of your carrier? can you post some pics for us?

bubbaandshaff · #21 28-09-04, 03:31

Received a copy of the National Forge & Ordnance Company 37m/m ANTI-TANK GUN INSTRUCTION BOOK in the mail today. It is basically a, how shall I put it...instruction book. It begins with setting the piece for operation, sighting and bore-sighting, complete!!! disassembly and maintenance, the ammunition limber, and finally accessories. Nothing mentions who was using them, nor design history. There is no standard "military nomenclature" used, nor any references to other 37mm AT guns. However the drawings, and text appear to use standard ordnance type part numbering.

Some things that I found interesting about the manual:
1. All weights and measurements are first in metric, then in English.
2. The gun pictured in the manual appears to be Ser # 388.
3. Only one photo shows a partial "Je maintiendrai" Coat of Arms Plaque on the breech shield similar to ours. All other photos show none.
4. The only date found anywhere is on a drawing of the Wheel and Axle Assembly, "TWO WHEEL ASSEMBLYS SEE PURCHASE ORDER #C-15049 DATED 12-24-40"

The museum director also sent me this picture of a NF&O gun in their collection. I don't know if it's a prototype or a very early production gun. Notice how similar the upper carriage assembly and the location and design of the counterpoise (equilibrators) are compared to the known guns.

vonryan · #22 30-09-04, 00:02

Hi Chris.
I to have sent my money to the Wilder Museum for a copy of the Instrauction Manual for the 37mm guns.
Many thanks to Treena for her help.
The picture that you have posted with your last message looks like the gun here in Australia at the Mudgerraba Museum on the Gold Coast.
Sorry but i have been incapacitated for the last couple of weeks and have not been able to get about much (Gout in the bl##dy knee)
I have not forgotten your pictures of the other 37mm gun parts that i have or to get a quote on the breech handle.
I will get around to it in the next couple of days.

Best Regards.
Martin.

bubbaandshaff · #23 30-09-04, 01:56

Martin, I just finished making another copy of my Wilder Museum manual. I was going to send it to you as a "piece" offering. I will be home 9-11 Oct, and will take some more pics of our NF&O gun. If you have any requests for particular views, let me know. Maybe I can talk Dad into pulling the old T16 out of the Barn too (to give the kids a ride, of course). Take care, Chris

vonryan · #24 01-10-04, 00:17

Hi Chris.
That's wonderfull, i would appreciate some more photos. I will drag my gun out this weekend and take some more photos of it for you. I will also take the photos of the remains of the other two guns that i have. There is a big Military Club Swap Meeting coming up in Brisbane on the 17th of this month and i will do some serious investigation as to other guns that are around. I shall also visit the Mudgerraba Museum and take some more photos of their gun.
I would still like your copy of the Manual if you would like to send it, please let me know how much i owe you?

Best Ragards
Take Care.
Martin.

vonryan · #25 01-10-04, 00:31

Hi Keith.
My apologies for the tardy reply to your request, please find attached a couple of photos of the carrier.
I was lucky to find it, i was browsing the internet one day and came across a web site for an Auction Sale of Antique Guns, the Carrier was advertised in the auction along with a Ferret.
The sale had been over for a couple of months but i thought i would still call and see if it had sold or not.
I could't beleive that it was still for sale so i immediately sent a cheque. The good thing was that it was just down the road at Home Hill (I live in Cairns) and that the hull had never been cut. The guy that owned it had a Firearms Museum and it had been in his museum for the last thirty years.
It is missing all the internatls apart from some linkages and seat frames. I have since found a radiator, engine and gearbox but still need plenty of parts. The tracks and sprockets are good but a couple of the wheels will need re-rubbering.
The Jeep Club swp meeting is on later this month in Brisbane and i have allready spoken with some members that have most of the parts that i will need to get it going. One item that appears to be difficult to find is the coupling between the gearbox and diff. Do you know of any?
The Carrier is a South Australian Railways LP2A Serial Number 1403.

Best Regards.
Martin

vonryan · #26 01-10-04, 00:35

Another image of the carrier.
The hull is excellent and before the previous owner stored it in his museum he cleaned it up and gave it a good coat of paint.

hansheesakkers · #27 08-10-04, 19:30

Going through some documents I found following information concerning the nat. Forge guns:

Aruba and Curacao had 3 of these guns each in July 1942.
However in March 1944 Aruba had already 4 of these guns.

This is al the information I have right now. If more information surfaces I will let you know,

greetings Hans H.

bubbaandshaff · #28 24-10-04, 04:57

Here are some pictures that were taken over the weekend. I'm going to attach them to the post since my luck with link from webshots has been poor.

Mr. Lee Ness has uncovered reports from the Office of the Chief of Ordnance that details the "Test of 37 m/m AT Gun (Netherlands)" at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, between 11 Sep 1943 and 17 Feb 1944. The purpose was to "determine if Shot, APC, M51 and Shot, AP, M74 made for 37 m/m Gun M3, M5, and M6, loaded to give a muzzle velocity of 2600 ft/sec may be safely fired in the subject weapon." The report mentions a Lt. Col. E. Baretta, and a Col. de Jaeger, of the Netherlands Purchasing Commission.

It appears that the NF&O Co. made the ammunition to be used in their guns. The test was conducted using gun Ser # 433. The chamber of the NF&O guns were the same as US M3 AT guns, however, NF&O ammunition had a 1.488in dia. rotating band while M51A1/M74 ammunition had a 1.507in dia. rotating band. Also the NF&O guns were rated at 32,000psi chamber pressure, and US M3 guns at 50,000psi. In an earlier test the NF&O gun it did not function satisfactorily. However, for this test, the NF&O Co. rerifled a tube to 1.497in, and this appears to have allowed the satisfactory use of standard US ammunition.

The manual from the Wilder Museum has been very helpful. It appears that all the "weird" brackets and the crazy design are merely to allow for quick disassembly and storage. Now on to the Pictures.

Here is my daughter and I shooting some Cal..50 ammo for my birthday.

bubbaandshaff · #29 24-10-04, 05:05

Here is a comparison view of our M3 37mm AT Gun and the NF&O 37mm AT Gun

bubbaandshaff · #30 24-10-04, 05:10

The first page of specifications from the Wilder Museum Manual.