Speedometer Advice Needed

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Tony
I concur re. the author of the Manuals being misled. I have visited various manuals and have also sacrificed a speedometer head to expose its makeup. Below is the explanation of a typical speedometer taken from Wikipedia and I should have read this and then thought about the makeup of it. Of course the speedometer head cannot contain any gears other than the worm drives for the odometer. The speed indicated by the needle is dictated by the gear ratio between the driving gear and the driven gear at the transmission end of the speedometer cable. Apart from the indication by the number 5 on the rear of the 2pdr speedometer, doesn't show the Carrier number as stated in the Manual, possibly this is stamped where the speedometer cable enters the transmission or transfer case, not sure where in a 2pdr Carrier.

"The most common form of speedometer relies on the interaction of a small permanent magnet affixed to the rotating cable with a small aluminum cup affixed to the shaft of the pointer. As the magnet rotates near the cup, the changing magnetic field produces eddy currents in the cup, which themselves produce another magnetic field. The effect is that the magnet 'drags' the cup--and thus the speedometer pointer--in the direction of its rotation with no mechanical connection between them.

The pointer shaft is held toward zero by a fine spring. The torque on the cup increases with the speed of rotation of the magnet (which, recall, is driven by the car's transmission.) Thus an increase in the speed of the car will twist the cup and speedometer pointer against the spring. When the torque due to the eddy currents in the cup equals that provided by the spring on the pointer shaft, the pointer will remain motionless and pointing to the appropriate number on the speedometer's dial.

The return spring is calibrated such that a given revolution speed of the cable corresponds to a specific speed indication on the speedometer. This calibration must take into account several factors, including ratios of the tailshaft gears that drive the flexible cable, the final drive ratio in the differential, and the diameter of the driven tires. The speedometer mechanism often also drives an odometer".

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Next to Pedr's and Darian's observations. In their case the gear shift quadrants appear to have been blacked out. This doesn't appear to be the case with the 2pdr faces as the ones I have now seen were manufactured without the quadrants. The question is why was this blacking out done and for what vehicle? I have always restored Carrier panels as they were presented to me but I am now wondering if they were the correct panels containing quadrant scripted speedometer faces or were they, or at least the early ones, non-quadrant faces. It also appears that the 2pdr instrument panel holding plate had the guard protecting the lower toggle switches.

With regard to the fuel gauge it appears that the face and needle was simply painted out. I was given one of these by either Graeme or Wayne from the West, sorry guys I can't remember which one, and it was purported to be one specifically modified for a Carrier. This is in my collection never to be used.

Since this thread started I have had made the decals covering this particular speedometer face.

If anyone else has access to a 2pdr Carrier, I would like further confirmation of the speedometer face.

Bob

[Tony Smith]

Here's some more trivia regarding Stewart Warner Speedos. The Stewart Warner part code for the Ford gauge is 579, and the particular ones we're discussing here 579 AE. Notice Cletrrac's gauge is a 579 X. I'd love to find an application and date list for the different 579 series gauges, similar to what is in the background of this Hudson 563 series gauge on e-bay:

[Tony Smith]

Here's a nice mint 579 X that appeared on E-bay some time ago:

[Tony Smith]

And here's a nice close up of the 579 X face. Note the gear quadrants are outlined in red, which is not done on the CMP gauge:

[Tony Smith]

Without the definative list of S-W codes, how can we work out what gauge came from what vehicle. By the date code, of course! The Gauge I pictured is dated K6, which is June '42.

Year of manufacture:
A - 1933
B - 1934
C - 1935
D - 1936
E - 1937
F - 1938
G - 1939
H - 1940
J - 1941
K - 1942
L - 1943
M - 1944
N - 1945
P - 1946
Q - 1947
R - 1948
S - 1949
T - 1950
U - 1951
V - 1952
W - 1953
X - 1954
Y - 1955
Z - 1956

Month of Manufacture:
1 - January
2 - February
3 - March
4 - April
5 - May
6 - June
7 - July
8 - August
9 - September
10 - October
11 - November
12 - December

Bob's 2pdr gauge is K2, or Feb 42. That's just about spot on for the 2pdr contract!

Cletrac's 579 X gauge is N8, or Aug 45, so I would say that the red outlined face is for postwar 45-46 models.

[Tony Smith]

Pedr, any chance of reading the date code on those Islington pics taken 6/41? My guess would be something like H8 to 12, or J1 to 3.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
And here's a nice close up of the 579 X face. Note the gear quadrants are outlined in red, which is not done on the CMP gauge:

While the CMP gauge face has a Dark Grey outline around the quadrants. Notice the gear ranges are slightly different? The CMP gauge has 2nd gear from 6mph to 13mph, while the 579X '46 gauge has 2nd from 6 1/2mph to 14mph.

[Pedr]

As requested, cropped and zoomed back face of speedo.

Looked to me to be upside down, so also inverted. Date stamp appears to be 'H6'

Pedr

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Tony - a couple of questions.

1) Why do you say the red outline on the gear change quadrants are not CMP?

2) ".....so I would say that the red outlined face is for postwar 45-46 models....." Why do you say this and by "red outlined face" do you again mean the quadrants?

As you can see, and will see in subsequent posts, the red outline was utilised in 1942.
Bob

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Pic 2

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Pic 3

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Bob Moseley
Tony - a couple of questions.

1) Why do you say the red outline on the gear change quadrants are not CMP?

2) ".....so I would say that the red outlined face is for postwar 45-46 models....." Why do you say this and by "red outlined face" do you again mean the quadrants?

Originally posted by Tony Smith
I'd love to find an application and date list for the different 579 series gauges,.....

Quite simply, Bob, because I have not seen a wartime dated 579X before. Thank you for your pics. The one I pictured with a dark outline around the gauges is either a 579U or O, Mar 43. It is the only Stewart Warner I have with a clearly legible original face. (Yes, I meant "Red Outlined" quadrants)
Cletrac's is the first I have seen with a clear date, despite many other clear pics of the face. Being late 45, It is not for a CMP (Which had round gauges by then), so I though it was for post-war Civvy production, which was kicking off around that time in the US.
I do note though, that the red paint on the speed scale and on the other gauges in the cluster seems to fade much quicker than the Greys, Blacks and Whites. Some of my Waltham gauges appear to have no lining around the quadrants at all.

Will keep trap shut until I find an Stewart Warner catalogue with an application listing for the 579 series speedos.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Right, let me quickly finish what I started last night before the system crashed.

Pic 4

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Pic 5

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Replacement Pic 5.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Pic 6

Tony, for my edification, what is your authority for the alpha/numeric year code.

The other mystery at this stage is what does the number on the circular plate on the rear of the speedometer denote. We are led to believe the number 5 on the 2pdr speedometer was specific to the speedometer gearing. Is this the case?

Bob

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Bob Moseley
Tony, for my edification, what is your authority for the alpha/numeric year code.

Bob

It was from a Hot Rod magazine!
Article dealt with history of Stewart Warner and how gauges work.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Bob Moseley
The other mystery at this stage is what does the number on the circular plate on the rear of the speedometer denote. We are led to believe the number 5 on the 2pdr speedometer was specific to the speedometer gearing. Is this the case?

Bob

As all of the gauges pictured have had different numbers stamped, and it is my certain belief that all the speedos have the same "indication to cable turns" ratio (even the 100mph speedo), I would suggest that these numbers are a quality control inspector's stamp after the unit has been calibrated or inspected.
Here is a S-W Jeep GPW gauge, model 590 AB L1 (dated Jan 43). Note that it has 2 stamps on the centre cover, 07 and 20. This site has some info on S-W gauges in Jeeps, and confirms the same dating codes used by Stewart Warner.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
Interestingly, note that while no fuel gauge is provided on Aust and NZ carriers, that the hole in the panel is filled with a dummy gauge ie the body of the gauge has no electrical innards, but has terminals and a gauge face that's blank

Originally posted by Bob Moseley
With regard to the fuel gauge it appears that the face and needle was simply painted out. I was given one of these by either Graeme or Wayne from the West, and it was purported to be one specifically modified for a Carrier. This is in my collection never to be used.

This is the dummy fuel gauge unit. While there appears to be a blacked out square where a scale would normally be, this is just a faded/oxidised area and the gauge appears to have originally been blank. The King-Seeley part number is different to a fuel gauge.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Tony

Firstly, what is the KS part number on the gauge?

Secondly, why create a blank gauge when the outline line is clearly visible.

The other thing is the short white line top centre. The only gauge I know has that is the Amp Gauge (KS-40237N), but that also has -40 & +40 in the top left and right hand corners respectively.

Bob

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi all - with all my research combined with Pedr's invaluable input, all my Carrier panel restorations now contain the brown non gear quadrant speedometer face. Attached is my latest job that was scratch built on the owners dash plate.

Bob

[Lynn Eades]

I have some images of an original N.Z carrier dash(less the speedo) It shows a white needle in the otherwise blank fuel gauge hole. A friend commenting about his Ford CMP instrument cluster,said"all the instruments are the same" that is"they are all the same guts, just painted differently

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Lynn - don't know about the needle in the fuel gauge, somebody probably just painted it in. Re. Ford instruments, the Oil and the Fuel gauge have the same internals but different faces. However the Temperature gauge works in the opposite direction whilst the Battery Indicator and Ammeter gauges bear no resemblance to the other gauges. My advice is don't get your friend to restore any of your gauges.

Bob

[Lynn Eades]

Thanks for that. Needle in fuel gauge is real. Cheers.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Lynn - I think I posted this information before somewhere. What appears to have happened was that the fuel gauges in the Carrier panels were painted dark brown to obliterate them from view. I have one of these in my collection kindly donated from my West Australian MLU associate.

Bob