Canadian contract jeeps (was: CDLV 505 Jeep Serial numbers...)

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

Sorry I do not have info on your jeep specifically. I would be most interested to know the following about yours:
Date made:
Original Engine Number:
Contract (presumably CDLV 242):
WD number original for this vehicle:
Body tub number:
Any original markings found during restoration:

Frank Von Rosenstiel in Ontario, Canada has (or had) MB 119326 and from that and other info yours should be tub # 22XXX and was likely made 2-12-42 or 2-13-42.



Colin Stevens

Owner:
1942 MB-BRT 124345
1944 MB VDN-1121 (ex-1 AB Div; ex-Norway)
etc.

Former owner:
1942 MB 119021 (now Federal Government of Canada - Fort Rodd Hill NHS, Victoria, BC)
1942 MB 119446 (now Dean Wilcox, Coquitlam, BC)
1942 MB 155796 (now in Los Angeles, CA, USA)
1942 GPA 4545 (now in USA)
11943 GPW (ex-Defence Research Board) Now in Alberta.

[Barry Hampton]

Hi Colin, details as follows
Chassis Number; 119343
Engine number (on Data Plate): 120846
Engine Number actually fitted: 121233 (date 2-2 on block)
Contract: CDLV 242
Date of Delivery: 12th Feb 42
Body Tub Number: 22132

Unfortunately, any markings had been lost before I bought the Jeep. I would love to know the hood number, but guess its a CM 421xxx. Anything you can tell me on this would be welcome.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Colin Macgregor Stevens
Some jeeps were fitted with both headlights as blackout. Note there was a special headlight used in that case (I have one NOS).

Colin, could it look like this? Or does anybody else recognise this type of headlight, please?

Note marker light on top, and improvised mud flap on front of the mudguard.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Thanks for your input, Barry.

Originally posted by Barry Hampton
My slat grill is drilled for headlamp guards on both sides but most photos show one only on left and bridge plate on right.

Could it be only (later) vehicles intended for overseas use had one guard omitted to be fitted with a bridge classification plate?

Specifically the "Defence Aid" lights orders a single front headlamp mounted on the left side but with a pigtail sufficiently long enough to mount the lamp on the right if needed.

Indeed some pictures show jeeps with the headlight and bridge classification sign swapped over. Why would they switch the headlight over to the right hand side?

Thanks,
Hanno

"Corporal Harry Maud of 'B’ Squadron, The British Columbia Regiment, with a jeep, Helvoirt, Netherlands, 18 November 1944" ( source )

[Eric B]

Hello

I have found no orders or instructions to moving the blackout headlights and bridge plates to the opposite side from where they were placed when assembled. I have seen various photos with one or the other missing or on the opposite side. Generally these photos were taken once the vehicle had left Britain.

War Department number do not generally coincide with the Jeep contract.

When the CDN Contract jeeps were assembled in Britain they were assigned CMD numbers. These were then changed to War Department numbers once the vehicle was assigned permanantly to a Unit.

The British allotted batches of their War Depatment numbers to be assigned to the Canadian Vehicles, therefore you will not see a British and Canadian vehicle with the same number unless it is the same vehicle.

The 116XXXX numbers are generally the earlier contracts, but i have seen 505 and 242 jeeps assigned numbers after a GPW, which we would have bought used in 1943 and later.

Some vehicles were also renumbered for an unknown reason. There is a case of a 116xxxx number being renumbered to a 423xxxx.

RCN and RCAF were also assigned vehicles from the Army and some of these were renumber to their own service's numbering systems but some still kept the original WD number.

We also received and traded jeeps with the British, which explains why some of the CDN Vehicles have no C in front of them.

I have never seen the odd headlight before. Any chance of seeing a copy of the rest of the photo?

Thanks

Eric

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Eric B
I have never seen the odd headlight before. Any chance of seeing a copy of the rest of the photo?

Eric, Sure! I found it on the Netherlands Photo Museum website: http://www.nederlandsfotomuseum.nl/

The picture is captioned "Canadian driver of an Allied jeep who is waiting patiently, after he entered Amsterdam with three colleagues on 2 or 3 May already, to the amazement of the public, Sint Antoniesbreestraat (1945)"

I think the registration number reads CM4242954 (or 34).

Nummer beschrijving 407951; Fotonummer Vol00020004_0_52_00010520; Fotograaf Jongkind, Cees N.; Inventarisnummer 8; Negatiefnummer 30;
Bijschrift NL: Een Canadese chauffeur van een geallieerde jeep wacht rustig af, nadat hij met drie collega's al op 2 of 3 mei de Amsterdamse binnenstad was ingereden, dit tot verbijstering van het toegesnelde publiek, Sint Antoniesbreestraat (1945)
Stad/Dorp Amsterdam; Opnamedatum op/vanaf 1945-05-02; Opnamedatum t/m 1945-05-08

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here's another picture of the very same jeep. Zooming in on the registration number I think it reads CM4242954.

Nummer beschrijving 407949; Fotonummer
Vol00020004_8_51_00010518; Fotograaf Jongkind, Cees N.; Inventarisnummer 8; Negatiefnummer 28
Bijschrift NL: Een Canadese chauffeur van een geallieerde jeep wacht rustig af, nadat hij met drie collega's al op 2 of 3 mei de Amsterdamse binnenstad was ingereden, dit tot verbijstering van het toegesnelde publiek, Sint Antoniesbreestraat (1945)
Stad/Dorp Amsterdam; Opnamedatum op/vanaf 1945-05-02; Opnamedatum t/m 1945-05-08

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Barry Hampton
Please note the body male fittings for some sort of enclosure. Mine also has this, but not all Canadian contract ones have them.

Barry,

Are these not the footman loops to fit the canvas top cover?

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Colin Macgregor Stevens
Some jeeps were fitted with both headlights as blackout. Note there was a special headlight used in that case (I have one NOS).

Colin,

Is this the type of headlight you are referring to?

Hanno

[Eric B]

Hello Hanno

Yes that is a jeep blackout headlight, i have a NOS one as well.

Thanks for the link to the photo. I am always looking for these and serial and WD numbers to go with them.

It is possible that since the troops were now driving on the right side of the road on the Continent that they felt they needed to change the side the light was located??

Anything was possible in the field.


The fasteners are part of a winter enclosure, i am not sure if it was an official or local mod.

Thanks
Eric

[Barry Hampton]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Are these not the footman loops to fit the canvas top cover?

Hi Hanno, the fittings I'm looking at are the male studs on the top edges of the body tub. The photos I've seen with these fittings all show them in the same positions suggesting it is a standard made enclosure rather than a field mod. The studs are approx half inch on the flat part of the body and 3/4 inch on the curves.
Barry

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Over on http://www.gaf.zeelandnet.nl a Dutchman is offerering a French text book about the restauration of a slat grille Willys MB. Reportedly, this book contains 140 pages with pictures and information on all the unique parts and details of Canadian contract jeeps.

Anyone seen this book?

Hanno

Naam: Jacco
Datum: 3 March 2009
Telnr.: 0629421632
Rubriek: Boeken
Aangeboden: Aangeboden:

Nieuw Jeepboek speciaal over de Willys Early MB Jeep in Canadese uitvoering!!

Meer dan 140 pagina's vol met fotos en informatie!

Alle onderdelen en unieke details over de Willys Early MB worden aan de hand van originele fotos en een verslag van de restauratie van een Canadese Early MB weergegeven! Dus ook veel informatie over de correcte uitvoering van Canadese Jeeps!!

34,50 per stuk, porto, 6,75

[Barry Hampton]

No Hanno, I haven't seen this, but a French text wouldn't help me much!

It will be interesting to see how comprehensive it is.

[JRRDixon]

I know this discussion thread has been quiet for a while but I am curious if anybody has a CDLV 505 Contract Willys near Serial no 155562.

Engine Serial # 160432
Body Serial # 59401
DOD 7/7/42
Brass Data Plates

I have no hood number.
Does anybody know if the hood numbers were prefixed with CM?

Also These Willys supposedly had a tool box mounted on the front and lifting rings.

Jason

[david moore]

Jason
My 505 is #170425 so not especially close! Date would have been, we estimate, 28 Aug 42 but that dataplate missing. Body serial is 71862. Mine has holes in rear frame for tie down rings (not intended for lifting or towing I believe). Mine also has remains of the clips on the windshield frame for the original wiring for the electric wiper - also a hole in the driver side cowl for same..

Several years ago I corresponded with Colin McGregor Stevens in BC - he had 155796.

Kingston

[david moore]

Jason

Me again! Your jeep almost certainly did not go overseas unless it was bought back recently from Norway, UK or similar. Those staying in Canada never had the Brit-style census numbers. Rather it would originally have had 42-xxx (or 42-1-xxx if RCASC) in small numerals probably on the body side not the hood and then in 1943 this would have been changed to xx-xxx in much larger numerals depending on where it was located, the first xx NOT being the year.
Hope this makes sense!

If it was RCN as mine was or RCAF then the numbers are a whole different story!

David

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

David Moore

Unfortunately you have the DND number information incorrect. I found actual wartime explanation in a manual. Summarized here:

42-1-1234 = 1942 vehicle accepted into Canadian Army, ; -1- = meant that it was NOT an R.C.A.S.C. vehicle ; 1,234th vehicle taken on strength that year, excluding motorcycles and excluding R.C.A.S.C. vehicles.

42-1352 would be the 1,532nd vehicle accepted into the R.C.A.S.C. that year.

About January 1943 the DND number system changed. Pre-existing vehicles were renumbered by units and were NOT sequential. R.C.A.S.C. were no longer separately numbered. Motorcycles started at 2,000 e.g. 2-123 and other army vehicles at 50,000 range e.g. 61-261. R.C.A.F. had 20,000 and 30,000 number ranges.



Colin

Originally Posted by david moore

Jason

Me again! Your jeep almost certainly did not go overseas unless it was bought back recently from Norway, UK or similar. Those staying in Canada never had the Brit-style census numbers. Rather it would originally have had 42-xxx (or 42-1-xxx if RCASC) in small numerals probably on the body side not the hood and then in 1943 this would have been changed to xx-xxx in much larger numerals depending on where it was located, the first xx NOT being the year.
Hope this makes sense!

If it was RCN as mine was or RCAF then the numbers are a whole different story!

David

[M38CDNBill]

Hi gang,

My friend started stripping the paint from his slat grill jeep. I asked him to go very slowly to discover the markings and the first observation is that maybe there is a coat of RCAF blue paint over the OD one. Here is a picture where we see a very partial marking on the bottom of the windshield on the driver's side.

[Lars R.]

On DND numbers...

Originally Posted by david moore

Rather it would originally have had 42-xxx (or 42-1-xxx if RCASC) in small numerals probably on the body side not the hood and then in 1943 this would have been changed to xx-xxx in much larger numerals depending on where it was located, the first xx NOT being the year.

I have a query here. David writes the -1- indicates R.C.A.S.C., however in the Chapter on CDLVs in the Lloyd White Volume 1 "The Evolution of the Willys-Overland MB Jeep" page 406, Eric writes that the -1- stood for "car 5cwt 4x4". Or, if not in contradiction, did the R.C.A.S.C. use the -1- indicating "car 5cwt 4x4" but otherwise it was not used? Then, how did Jeeps reach the forces through R.C.A.S.C. or, directly, bypassing them?

What is correct?

[Lars R.]

Vancouver Parade 1942
DND 42-1-5317

[Marc Belanger]

All.
After 30 years of restoration and collecting artefacts related to the CDLV 242, I could indicate that I do not own any certitude. This was war, everything was in a hurry. Period pictures, national archives do indicate inconsistencies.

In addition to the similitudes to the USMC MB`s, listed on the parts manual. This is noted, the frame does have the holes in the front arms (mostlikely the 242 were built consecutively after the USMC`s). Holes to receive the front hooks but left empty.

This is amaizing to locate some 242 survivers in Europe but more luckily to locate severals in Canada. Some for an unknowned reasons came back and were sold to civilaians as crown asset. I do base this statement after analised some fine exemples. Brian Cox, Mc Mullin family and my 118768. All of them have remains of oversea modification. Obviously, the holes on the dash, left side to receive the axle-stop light switches and data plate. Hole in the lower section of the frame rear cross member (right side) to accomodate the rear axle lamp.

This is to note, McMullins family do own wat I consider to be the oldest CDLV 242....just few didgit before mine. Is someone could validate an older one?

Another point of interest is the original census number that resurfaced on 118768 rear panel...unit has been identified CM 4231089 in large letters/numbers. This is also obvious, another row of numbers were applied but not clear enough for conclusion. So unit has been identified twice.

Several census number sequences noted on archives, CM116xxx, CM423xxx, CM55xxxx

[JRRDixon]

Marc,

I have heard of people finding information on vehicles (ie service records) in the Canadian Archive. I have had no luck finding such info.. Can you give me suggestions where to look.

thanks.

Jason

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Moved from Sherbrooke Hussars Sherman III on D-Day :

Originally Posted by Jordan Baker

Did anyone else notice the Canadian contract slat grill Jeep in the background of the first picture link in post#12

Nice one, thanks for pointing it out!

IWM B 6328_cropped.jpg

Originally Posted by m kenny

IWM photos B6328-B6331 are the collection point/graveyard at Bray though this is not mentioned in the caption. One tank is clearly Canadian.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205205971
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205415913
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205415914
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205415915

[jeepingpw]

Came across this old thread and thought I'd add more info on my GPW as I'm still trying to find out its history.

Like Ian McCallum's mine has


Brass choke/throttle cable heads

rounded/square clutch /brake pedals,
these I always wondered if they were correct as I'd never seen a square one

Unfortunately the body had been stripped down to bare metal in the 1970's so no marking are left

data plate

plates-007.jpg

[Eric B]

I have no data on your GPW.

Sadly without the information on the vehicle body, you will most likely never know its history.

Thanks
Eric

[Hanno Spoelstra]

The Canadian Government gifted a total of 899 rebuilt Jeeps to The Netherlands under the Canadian Mutual Aid programme. The first batch of 50 Jeeps arrived at Rotterdam Harbour in June 1953, where one was lifted from the hold of the ship Prins Willem V. The Canadian Ambassador T.A.S. Stone (left) and the Dutch Secretary of War mr. F.J. Kranenburg had their picture taken, and soon after the Willys MB was hoisted back on board to be forwarded to Utrecht.

One month later all 899 Jeeps had arrived in The Netherlands where they were prepared for issue to operational units in Soesterberg.

Willys MB “61-117” depicted here was supplied to Canada under one of the Canadian CDLV contracts, after which it served in Canada. After being refurbished, it was first shipped abroad in 1953.

235381541_1477888265881710_8351200144131883_n.jpg NL-HaNA_2.24.05.02_0_091-0673_1.jpg
Source: http://proxy.handle.net/10648/a90cfb...8-003048976d84


Note the crate with spares in the back. The mudguard has "WT", "CU" and "CASE NO" applied to it for shipping purposes.
NL-HaNA_2.24.01.09_0_905-7553.jpg 905-7554_zoom.jpg


Another picture shows Willys MB "77-700" being lifted off board.
NL-HaNA_2.24.01.09_0_905-7552.jpg
Source: http://proxy.handle.net/10648/a90cf9...8-003048976d84

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Eric Booth wrote:

Here is the information on the sale of CDN vehicles to the Dutch:

CFN Disposal Release No 16 30 Nov 45
Sold through CAAC to Dutch Government Jeeps - 190 Willys - 140 Ford -50
Declared Surplus Inventory 17 ABP - Arnhem Feb 1946
5 Willys belonging to Dutch Govt not yet picked up.
CDN surplus in the Neth value of $80,000,000 total 25 March 1946
Cdn Det to the Neth Government at 33,000,000 total to Cdn surplus in Holland and in full that is owed to it by the CDN Army and pay a sum of 4,000,00 to the CDN Govt.
All vehicles outside Neth to be returned to the UK.

The Dutch Bijzondere Aankoop Commissie (BAC, or Special Purchase Committee) in London negociated a deal with the Canadian Department Reconstruction and Supply for military purchases from surplus depots in The Netherlands and England. The first transfer of army trucks started in January 1946. In the first half of the year 226 Jeeps were shipped from the Bordon Depot in the UK to the Netherlands, plus a further 24 to Tandjong Priok in the Netherlands East-Indies. In May 1946 an "overall deal" was struck when the Dutch Ministry of Finance took over the remaining rolling stock in the Canadian dumps in Deelen and Enschede . In this deal were at least 1100 running Jeeps, plus 2200 Jeeps to be parted out for spare parts. (Source: "De Jeep In Nederland" by J.W. Hoogendoorn.)


Attached is a photo of a row of surplus Jeeps at Bordon. A number of the Canadian Jeeps stored there were sold to the Dutch government. Later, in August 1946 circa 800 were auctioned off to the general public in the UK (ref. The Deelen Dump in Holland).

55E95EBE-9894-418A-9F8B-4FBEBF0590E7.jpeg