new trucks for the C.F.

[mike mckinley]

hi all

from what i have heard lately, the government is committed to procuring some new trucks for our army, to replace the 2 1/2 ton MLVW. anybody out there care to take a stab as to what the replacement will be, or what trucks they will be evaluating ?

mike

[chris vickery]

I haven`t heard Mike but I`ll offer my opinion anyway.
I believe this topic was up on the Forum in the past somewhere?
Anyhow, I wish our government would get their heads together and maybe persue dealings with the US government.
It would make more economic sense as well as logistical sense in todays battlefield to operate US designed and built equipment rather than to purchase some oddball Euro stuff like we usually do. I know many guys will jump on me for not suggesting to build our own but past mistakes should prove that neither Bombardier or Western Star was very good at what they did for the CF.
The Iltis was Germany`s cast off and the replacement for the 5/4 that Western Star built was not so great either. Wasn`t it based on some European design as well?
At any rate, I`m sure it would be better to purchase the next trucks on the coattails of an American contract. I felt the same way regarding us buying the HMMWV, as i think thats what we should have got as well.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by chris vickery
It would make more economic sense as well as logistical sense in todays battlefield to operate US designed and built equipment rather than to purchase some oddball Euro stuff like we usually do.
(...)
The Iltis was Germany`s cast off

C'mon Chris, the Volkswagen Iltis is not a cast off, maybe the Bombardier version was made from the wrong cast :-)

Face it, the Mercedes Benz G-Wagen acquired by Canada's Army to replace the Iltis is the cream of the crop (pic source: armyimages.forces.gc.ca). It is the vehicle of choice for many armies around the world, including the USMC who find the Hummer too cumbersome. Here's hoping Canada will continue to search for oddball Euro stuff and be pleasantly surprised!

[Snowtractor]

The US stuff isn't all that bad . Their 5 tonners are going through a refreshing program instead of replacement because the are so sturdy. They expect another 20 years out of them. The Hummer is a solid unit being used for far more than ever imagined when it was first bought.
From history both past and present the US have been very generous in field with supplies when needed. In Germany in the 50's round nose Jimmie 2.5 tonners were used by the Cdn's. My friend has a story of feeling a shimmy and stopping only to find he had only 2 lug nuts remaining on the front wheel. Well before he got a chance to put out markers along came a US workshop truck and had him fixed up in quick order because they carried all the same parts as they drove the same trucks. I doubt they would have had the parts for Volvo, Iltis, etc etc.
Sean

[alleramilitaria]

the G wagon is a great vehicle that will serve the canadian forces well... as long as you arnt gettien shot at, dont have to shoot back, dont have to go off road too much, dont have to hual ammo, food, wounded, dont have to call out with a AM radio set, dont need HD armor for IEDs, ow yea and you dont need it fixed in a overseas operation. what ever happened to working together???

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally posted by alleramilitaria
the G wagon is a great vehicle that will serve the canadian forces well... as long as you arnt gettien shot at, dont have to shoot back, dont have to go off road too much, dont have to hual ammo, food, wounded, dont have to call out with a AM radio set, dont need HD armor for IEDs, ow yea and you dont need it fixed in a overseas operation. what ever happened to working together???

Dave.....
Read the articals on this link...
Don't skip the one on April 17th,2002....
Then you may want to re-write this message....
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...2508_118588892

[John McGillivray]

Let’s hope that the needs of the military are not trumped by the requirements for “economic and industrial benefits”. (i.e. the army gets stuck with some over priced kit that can barely do the job, so that the politicians can brag about the jobs they help create).

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Newsroo..._e.asp?id=1961

[alleramilitaria]

john, your kidding right?!?!?!?!

[rob love]

One truck the CF has been extremely happy with is the Steyr HLVW 10 ton. I recall seeing the Americans come up here with a 4 wheel version in the 4 or 5 ton class a few years back. Now that would be the right choice; interchangeability of parts, modern technology, and similar equipment used by the US.
I saw a website somewhere where the US military was extending the life of some of it's 5 ton M series trucks by installing the Steyr engines.

The old M35s days have gone by. It was the last truck I was issued as a MRT in the CF, and I put many miles on the old girl. I liked it for the nostalgic purposes; it was like driving an old M37 3/4 ton. But it left a lot to be desired.

Of course my MLVW got bucket seats out of a HLVW, a cab heater out of an Iltis, and a voltage converter in the back so I could watch my VCR while the artillery were doing their thing. Also there were two heaters in the back, and it got cold enough in Shilo that you needed both.

[mike mckinley]

it looks like this "new truck race" may be quite interesting. it seems that oshkosh trucks of oshkosh, wisconsin, have teamed up with dew engineering of canada, offering the mtvr as "the truck" for the C.F. mind you that they are not compatable with the steyr trucks, but are up to date, and battle proven. in fact, oshkosh has a reputation for building one of the toughest trucks in the world. it will be interesting to see what the outcome is, my only hope is that the forces get the best truck, regardless of the price or canadian content, because they deserve the best.
check out www.oshkoshtruckcanada.com for more info

mike

[sapper740]

Originally posted by chris vickery

the replacement for the 5/4 that Western Star built was not so great either. Wasn`t it based on some European design as well?

The LSVW was an Italian design, believe it or not.

[rob love]

While on my last tour in Bosnia, we would see many IVECOs come through our gates with the Italian police. They were also to be seen in Croatia a lot, being used as commercial vehicles. And when I say "seen" I mean they weren't heard. Unlike the Canadian ones, their brakes don't let you know for a mile that they are coming.
It is my understanding that the unreliability of the IVECO LSVW was partially a Canadian inbred thing. The Canadian ones are horrible vehicles; underpowered and high mainteneance, and with chronic problems. The LCMMs were actually talking about replacing them before the MLVW fleet, although I believe they now consider the LSVW adequate.

[mike mckinley]

hi all

i see tonight where a fairly large group of m35 cdn's are up for auction in halifax, and are posted on the ican website. i figure if the auctioning has begun the decision must have been made as to a replacement......has anyone heard anything recently on this topic??

cheers!!
mike

[RHClarke]

Oerlikon Contraves Canada teamed up with Stewart-Stevenson to bid on the contract.

See: http://www.oerlikon.ca/search/index....ring=stevenson

I also noticed a few veddy nice Mercedes tactical trucks in the woods near the old LETE proving grounds this summer...wonder what they are up to?

[Gord Bennett]

There's no doubt there's alot of good kit the American's have that's battle proven, cheap(er) and certainly more abundant than some of the other options out there.
The popular rumour-mill explanation throughout the CF is that although they have offered us the goods ie. hummers, blackhawks, etc. for a really good price, they demand exclusive rights to the spare parts market.
I suppose this could create logistical problems up the road. But, we in the CF are all too well accustomed to scavaging and cannibalizing for parts to keep other vehicles operational.
For the price of one G-Wagon we could have had 3 hummers- and the gross ammount of coin they spent on the LSVW and the revamping program of the ageing Iltis fleet could have been put to far better use.
I for one am glad the gov't has finally come to it's senses and is now looking at WHAT we're buying for our troops, and not concerning themselves on WHERE it's made.

[alleramilitaria]

i think the spair parts clause is in no way against you guys, just learning from the past. (libia has C-130s and ch47s, iran has M-60s, f-14s, ah1s, etc... hugo chavas has F-16s, vietnam has M-151s, etc...). so congres wants to have a safety valve in all the military asistence programs, they dont want the stuff back but they dont want nuts useing the stuff later in life either. and i think it has alot to do with the producers of the items like LTV corp has a tightly controled contract with the US over the hummers.

[mike mckinley]

so today, while in somewhat of a traffic jam i see the back end of what looks like an mlvw up ahead. then it turns off the main road i see a modern cab which looks like an international. i couldn't see too much in the way of detail, but it was a cf vehicle, and looked to be rated for 2-1/2 tons +.

[WayneR]

The new trucks are in fact International 2.5 ton trucks. Edmonton Garrison has been taking regular deliveries in the last little while. Though I havn't been inside of one yet they look a lot more comfortable than the ML was and is.

[Yeo.NT]

the new ML's are MSVS milicots and are larger then our 10 ton HLVWs

[jim fraser (RIP)]

hi.was at tim hortons yesterday.three new internationals pulled in from base petawawa.6x6 nice looking trucks.regards jim.

[Wpns 421]

Originally Posted by rob love

One truck the CF has been extremely happy with is the Steyr HLVW 10 ton. I recall seeing the Americans come up here with a 4 wheel version in the 4 or 5 ton class a few years back. Now that would be the right choice; interchangeability of parts, modern technology, and similar equipment used by the US.
I saw a website somewhere where the US military was extending the life of some of it's 5 ton M series trucks by installing the Steyr engines.

The old M35s days have gone by. It was the last truck I was issued as a MRT in the CF, and I put many miles on the old girl. I liked it for the nostalgic purposes; it was like driving an old M37 3/4 ton. But it left a lot to be desired.

Of course my MLVW got bucket seats out of a HLVW, a cab heater out of an Iltis, and a voltage converter in the back so I could watch my VCR while the artillery were doing their thing. Also there were two heaters in the back, and it got cold enough in Shilo that you needed both.

If you really want to get nostalgic about your MRT MLVW Come and see mine. It runs like a charm Gilles

[maple_leaf_eh]

On Startop Road near Cyrville Road in Ottawa there is a truck company yard with at least 3 dozen of the new 2 1/2 tons. I have seen these vehicles on the roads, and never knew where they were over nighting until yesterday.

This time last year I was asked if my unit still wanted some to replace our decrepit MLVWs, of course I said yes. The Sergeant Major and Acting OC agreed. We had a lot of input into the drawings for the extendible side office boxes on the back end. Imagine a drop pallet box with its own little on board gennie, AC and dehumidifier. The problem we ran into was how to store dense, heavy paper maps in steel cabinets without putting the CG too high. We wanted the drop side version the tire shop used, but we were too late to get the project realigned. Never quite figured that one out.

[jim fraser (RIP)]

hi.we purchased 1300 milcots,mil commercial off the shelf.275 million dollars in jan.i think it is 600 delivered in 09 and the rest in 2010.built by navistar defense.which is international.great looking trucks.regards jim.

[rob love]

I see lots of th IHC trucks in use by the American's here in KAF. The trucks are built in the US, so hopefully we have commonality with our American counterparts. I doubt any of these new trucks will make it here. Currently any MLVWs we have left are relegated to minor camp duties.

Here is the full press release from Navistar defense:

Navistar Defense Adds New Foreign Business With First Canadian Military Contract

Award is Part of Canada's MSVS Project to Strengthen Domestic Operations

Warrenville, IL (January 12, 2009)

Navistar Defense, LLC received its first Canadian military contract to date to provide the Canadian Department of National Defence with Military Commercial off the Shelf (MILCOTS) vehicles. The vehicles are the first element of Canada's Medium Support Vehicle System (MSVS) project, which will invest in medium sized logistics trucks to support domestic operations and sustain deployed forces. The C$275 million (~US$231 million) award will provide up to 1,300 vehicles and utilize the Canadian organization and dealer network of Navistar Canada, Inc for training, delivery, parts and maintenance support.

This award positions the company well for future opportunities under MSVS such as the replacement of Standard Military Pattern (SMP) medium lift trucks and trailers. As part of the MSVS project, SMP replacement is estimated to be more than 1,500 units.

"MILCOTS vehicles provide a strong area of growth for Navistar," said Archie Massicotte, president, Navistar Defense. "While our militarized commercial off the shelf trucks are built to help effectively perform various missions, our existing Canadian dealer network will provide quick parts and maintenance support for domestic missions."

The MILCOTS order will allow the Canadian military to customize vehicle variants based off the International® WorkStar® platform. Optional upgrades and additional military components will let Canada further tailor its vehicles for domestic mission use. Under the multi-year contract, six vehicle variants will be provided including General Troop Transporters, ISO (International Organization for Standardization) container transporters, as well as additional equipment such as augers and cranes.

Navistar's extensive Canadian dealer network includes 93 dealerships. Approximately 600 units of the MILCOTS order will be delivered during fiscal year 2009 with the remaining units to be delivered in fiscal year 2010.

Navistar will continue to pursue new foreign military sales as part of its growth strategy. Since 2004, the company has won contracts to provide more than 7,000 units to U.S. allies such as Israel, Taiwan and the United Kingdom. In late 2008, the U.K. selected Navistar to compete in the next phase of its Operational Utility Vehicle Systems (OUVS) program. Navistar is also in negotiations with the U.K. to provide a portion of the needed Tactical Support Vehicles (TSV) for the Husky division. The U.K. Ministry of Defence announced in late October that it had earmarked £350 million (~US$530 million) for 400 TSV units.

Navistar Defense is an affiliate of Navistar International Corporation (NYSE: NAV), a holding company whose subsidiaries and affiliates produce International® brand commercial and military trucks, MaxxForce™ brand diesel engines, IC brand school and commercial buses, and Workhorse® brand chassis for motor homes and step vans. It also is a private-label designer and manufacturer of diesel engines for the pickup truck, van and SUV markets. The company also provides truck and diesel engine parts and service. Another affiliate offers financing services. Additional information is available at www.Navistar.com/newsroom.

[Ed Storey]

Here is an image of an Intertnational Workstar 7400 8 tonne MSVS on Star Top Road in Ottawa.