H 42084 Smith, Edward, Rifleman

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Just a note, the Roll of Honour of The Royal Winnipeg Rifles (Second World War), has now been updated to reflect the correct date and cause of death for both Lt Ferguson, W.S. and Rfmn Smith, E.

*LT FERGUSON, W.S. 8/6/44
*RFN SMITH, E. 8/6/44

* Murdered in the field as prisoners of war.

The 'Rifles' plaque at Audrieu (in memory of those murdered) also bares both their names.

The Roll of Honour can be found here

Cheers

Thanks MARK,

If LT FERGUSON's date is corrected on the Roll Of Honour then that may mean they had to have "proof" on paper somehow ... maybe they have something on record that the War Graves site will accept as "enough proof of date of death" to be able to update/correct the date error too.

Karmen

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Hi John;

Have who noticed that the statement of both Gnr Clark, W.F. (posted above) and the account in "Conduct Unbecoming" - differ from that of Cliff Chadderton’s book "Excuse us! Herr Schicklgruber".

In both Clark's statement and in "Conduct Unbecoming", it says that the German's were armed with machine carbines (which would have been MP 40's), and yet in Chadderton’s account, it refers to the execution being carried out by vehicle mounted MG's (which would have been either MG 34's or MG 42's).

I noticed that contradiction too.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Letter (dated: 14 June, 1945) sent to the Officer-in-Command, Records (Canadian Military Headquarters-London (UK)) from the Administration Officer, 1st Canadian War Crimes Investigation Unit (North-West Europe). Half way down the attached list (not posted here) appears the following entry:
H-42084 Rfmn Smith, E. RWR (along with his Plot/Row/Grave info)

(Note: the above mentioned letter can be found on page 2 of this thread)

The attached list:

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Army Message (dated: 4 October, 1945) that was sent from the Records Office - NDHQ(Ottawa) to the Records Office - CMHQ(London) regarding Battle Casualties AEF (Ailled Expeditionary Force). I have only posted the top portion of the message, the bottom portion lists the 31 names mentioned, with Edward's appearing at the top of the left hand column (H42084 Rfmn Smith E).

(Note: the above mentioned Army Message can be found on page 2 of this thread)

The complete list:

Thanks Everyone,

I really must have been sleeping/distracted to have not "connected" Lt W.S. FERGUSON with the same mentioned in the witness statement a few posts back. It's a blessing to have REAL historians on board to find and correct things... even me

Karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

Two witness statements from April 1945. Top: from Rfmn Desjarlais, A. (dated: 29 Apr 45). Bottom: from Rfmn Sinclair, A. (dated: 27 Apr 45). Note: in the top statement Edward's (Rfmn Smith) initials are wrong, they have them being "J.R.M." but the Svc # is Edward's (H 42084):

Hi Mark,

Regards (RFMN ???) A. SINCLAIR witness report. The SINCLAIR name and the service number H 41872 both jumped out at me as so very close to my Uncle's number H 42084. They must have signed up in the same place around the same time and he obviously knew my Uncle by name/number (which could have been just through training/serving together) ... I'd really like to know where Rfmn A. SINCLAIR is from. Do you have any background information about him, Mark?

Thanks,

Karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
Hi Mark,

Regards (RFMN ???) A. SINCLAIR witness report. The SINCLAIR name and the service number H 41872 both jumped out at me as so very close to my Uncle's number H 42084. They must have signed up in the same place around the same time and he obviously knew my Uncle by name/number (which could have been just through training/serving together) ... I'd really like to know where Rfmn A. SINCLAIR is from. Do you have any background information about him, Mark?

Thanks,

Karmen

No, I'm sorry, I don't. His statement was in your Uncle's file. I thought you could tell me about him, considering his Surname is that of 'Sinclair'.

Cheers

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
No, I'm sorry, I don't. His statement was in your Uncle's file. I thought you could tell me about him, considering his Surname is that of 'Sinclair'.

Cheers

I've tried before to find out more about him but hit a brick wall so far. Sinclair is a common name back home connected back to a Hudson's Bay company's fur trade days. Most of us from the area ARE fur trade descendants (Metis etc) ... I just don't know if Rfmn A. SINCLAIR is connected. Yet. If so ... that would explain him knowing my Uncle beyond through meeting as RWR's.

TOMMY PRINCE married a VERNA SINCLAIR (my mothers first husbands sister) and I know she's still living in Winnipeg these days ... maybe it's time for me to contact her and find out about other family soldiers for my family history. ... and maybe she knows who Rfmn A. SINCLAIR is.

Doing family tree stuff for that area means I think we're ALL related!!! Incredible...and very confusing!

Meanwhile ... I still would like to know if there is a family connection to Rfmn A. Sinclair ... so ... if anyone knows anything about him I'd sure appreciate hearing about him.

Thanks,

Karmen (still groggy half asleep today... can't wake up)

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Karmen;

I've just realized that this thread, to date, has answered the majority of the questions you originally asked on pages 5 and 6 of the 'Books photos about executed POWS June 1944' thread, way back when.....I guess that means, if you long enough, eventually someone will answer

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
Karmen (still groggy half asleep today... can't wake up)

....why should today be different then any other day...Oh!, you actually mean to say that you do wake up from time to time.....I see, ......... Bye

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
....why should today be different then any other day...Oh!, you actually mean to say that you do wake up from time to time.....I see, ......... Bye

Regards if I long enough, answers shall finally come ... in this case, yes they've been a long time coming, but they're coming ... which still amazes me and makes me know how fortunate I am, unlike many others researching their relatives and all and sadly hitting blank-walls. I just got lucky by spotting a mainline link into MLU resources/help and minds

BTW ... yore a fine cheeky Hairy Beast Buggar (sometimes) you are. Occassionally ... I DO wake up long enough to notice I was sleeping or that yore cheek-buggar-ness needs a reply ...

Swing low
Swing high
Ma swings her frying pan
On the hairy beast old fart-man

I think I can I think I can ... (and will one day soon )

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Last summer,after watching Cliff Chatterton's documentary,where Tom Windsor(executed with two other soldiers) sent a last letter to his wife,here in Montreal,I made a note of the address,and one day while in that area of the city,I found the exact address,and the building is still there.Just doing my part in honor of one of our fallen.Great input Mark

Hello Folks,

I was able to take pictures of some old black and white photos of mine, and here is a photo of my Grandpa Joe ... Uncle Ed's father. The photo was taken before Sept. 17, 1945 (prior to his death) ... the church in the background is our little back home St. Luke's Anglican ... the small cemetary is there too, most closest relations passed on family are at rest there, including Grandpa and Granny.

Private Joseph Smith
Regimental # 1072219
C.M.R. C.E.F.

Karmen

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
I was able to take pictures of some old black and white photos of mine, and here is a photo of my Grandpa Joe ... Uncle Ed's father. The photo was taken before Sept. 17, 1945 (prior to his death) ... the church in the background is our little back home St. Luke's Anglican ... the small cemetary is there too, most closest relations passed on family are at rest there, including Grandpa and Granny.

That would seem to self-evident, would it not?

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
That would seem to self-evident, would it not?

Nitpicker ...

The POINT was it was taken pre Sept 17, 1945 and how I KNOW this to be so is because Grandpa died on that date.

K.

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Place: Field (UK)
Date of Offence: 24/3/44
Offence: AWL 2 days, 4 hours
Punishment Awarded: 10 days field punishment and forfeiture of 12 days pay total
Date punishment awarded: 31/3/44
By whom awarded: Lt-Col JM Meldram

Hi Folks,

I wonder if someone can explain to me what "10 days field punishment" means, and what the punishment probably consisted of?

Thank you in advance

Karmen.

[klambie]

Hi Karmen,

I'd also be interested in learning more about discipline during WW II, as I believe it had evolved to become less harsh since its origins in the 1800's and into WW I. Hopefully some with some relevant military experience can tell us more. Here is a page with info on the various levels of discipline in 1914:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A944363

That probably provides a broad guide to the types of punishments administered, though the details of fines etc. obviously would have changed by 1944. Most of those terms still appear in the records of WW II soldiers. I had always assumed field punishment included lots of marching about in full kit, cleaning and polishing and other menial and physical tasks. It's possible that underestimates its harshness. I do not know if it would have still included being shackled, etc during this period.

Originally posted by klambie
Hi Karmen,

I'd also be interested in learning more about discipline during WW II, as I believe it had evolved to become less harsh since its origins in the 1800's and into WW I.

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for your response I wonder often what sorts of actions and such that my Uncle, and others who were "disciplined", had to do, or do without My dear Uncle had a number of AWOLs in his records, both "at home in Canada" and Overseas and it's always been a question in my mind as to what forms of disciplinary actions were meted out, and for what

ALSO, I am thinking that a whole new thread started about "discipline" would be good (and extremely interesting to read through) as this could become a whole topic all on it's own, and would "get lost" in my Uncle's thread here.

IN FACT, the more I consider this, I'm going to start one right now and we can attract peoples responses directly to this subject. I'll also post a link from this thread to the new one!



Karmen

HERE is the link to the new thread "Discipline in WW2":

http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...&threadid=6854



Karmen.

In Memory of Uncle Eddie and Grandpa Joe. Ed's birthday Sept. 17, 1922, and Grandpa Joe's (Ed's Dad) death Sept. 17, 1945.

Karmen.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
Well hey there you guys, back home Uncle Eddie had a rep as "Oh he was a REAL that one!" stressed with a lot of goodnatured and loud laughter I DO know that if Uncle Ed was anything like many of the relatives, he probably would have had the guys in stitches. He had an inclination to give into practical jokes ... some on the receiving end got choked sometimes Toss in the ability to laugh at our human silliness, including (his) own and hey ... we really are a silly bunch of mammals sometimes.

God ... I wish I could have known him in person. He would have been a gas ... and I'd have been overjoyed to show him how highly I think of him.

Kartmann, May 2008. You will pay your respects to your uncles. This is a solemn promise, hereby made publicly. Your family deserves no more and no less. Dunno how we'll sort this, but by god, you WILL be there. I swear. I was privileged to represent you in 2004, now it's your turn.

Geoffrey A. W. Winnington-Ball, Capt, OC, MLU.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Karmen;

I've figured out what the 'Greek Battalion' was that Eddie was with from 25 February to 18 March 1943 .... I actually came across this yesterday while researching something else.

There were three 'Greek Battalions', (1st, 2nd and 3rd) which formed the 'Greek Brigade', which was an ad hoc force that was organized by the Canadian Reinforcement Units in the UK to supplement the available troops of 1st Canadian Infantry Division during Exercise 'SPARTAN' (1 to 12 March 1943) in the UK.

During Exercise 'SPARTAN', Headquarters 1st Canadian Infantry Division assumed the operational responsibilities on the coast of Sussex normally carried out by Headquarters 1st Canadian Corps, in an anti-raid role. The 1st Canadian Infantry Division did not take part in SPARTAN due to the 2nd and 3rd Canadian Infantry Brigades undergoing combined operations training in Scotland, but what troops were not away on training (1st Canadian Infantry Brigade), along with the ad hoc 'Greek Brigade', drawn from the Canadian Reinforcement Units, manned the Sussex coastal positions, under command of Headquarters 1st Canadian Infantry Division during the course of Exercise 'SPARTAN'.

This explains the entries on Eddie's Record of Service, which read:

- 24 Feb 1943 - Stricken off Strength of 2nd Canadian Infantry Reinforcement Unit

- 25 Feb 1943 - Taken on Strength of 2nd Greek Battalion - in UK

- 17 Mar 1943 - Taken on Strength of 2nd Canadian Infantry Reinforcement Unit - in UK

- 18 Mar 1943 - Stricken off Strength of 2nd Greek Battalion

Cheers

THANK YOU MARK! Excellent find. Amazing how many "other" things can be found when searching about something else hey?

I knew that one day something HAD to be found out about them and it's great to finally have that mystery solved and learn that Uncle Ed was part of that exercise SPARTAN.

You've made my day.

Karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir 2nd
....and learn that Uncle Ed was part of that exercise SPARTAN.

Sorry Karmen, you've misread my last reply.

Eddie was NOT part of Ex SPARTAN. The 'Greek Brigade' supplemented the available troops of 1st Canadian Infantry Division whom assumed the operational responsibilities on the coast of Sussex, while the troops that normally would have been in those positions took part in Ex SPARTAN.

Cheers

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Sorry Karmen, you've misread my last reply.

Eddie was NOT part of Ex SPARTAN. The 'Greek Brigade' supplemented the available troops of 1st Canadian Infantry Division whom assumed the operational responsibilities on the coast of Sussex, while the troops that normally would have been in those positions took part in Ex SPARTAN.

Cheers

In essense then, Uncle Ed was part of a group that took over and filled in doing the usual duties of the guys who went off on the SPARTAN exercise ... yes?

Did I interpret that correctly this time?

Karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir 2nd
In essense then, Uncle Ed was part of a group that took over and filled in doing the usual duties of the guys who went off on the SPARTAN exercise ... yes?

Did I interpret that correctly this time?

Karmen

...... The says Yes!..... and another one to keep it in!

Thanks Mark

Karmen

Uncle Eddie would be celebrating his 85th Birthday today. He was 21 when he was murdered in 1944.

Karmen

Karmen