Canadian contract jeeps (was: CDLV 505 Jeep Serial numbers...)

[M38CDNBill]

After few researchs, I guess that marking is the previous sign (until the Dieppe raid or before 1943) of the 1st Armoured Brigade. I checked out a picture of the Dieppe raid and on the front of a 14th Armoured Regt tank (Calgary Regt), I saw the same sign and during the WWII, the Three Rivers Regt was in the same brigade.

Does somebody can confirm this affirmation?

[Phil Waterman]

Thanks, Hanno for posting the picture of the CBC Jeep it lead to another photo which if I ever got a Jeep would be the number I'd use. I've collected all the recording gear shown on the hood as this is the same stuff used in the CBC HUPs and BBC trucks.

The Canadian Archives have more CBC photos of equipment that are not yet available over the web.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by M38CDNBill
Nice picture Win. However, I don't recognize the unit marking under the windshield driver side. The Three Rivers Regt was in the 1st Armoured Brigade (independent) and this markings is not the good one. Somebody has an answer?

The Arm of Service marking and the Brigade Formation sign that appear on the jeep in Wim's photo are correct for the time that the photo was taken (July 42).

Originally posted by M38CDNBill
After few researchs, I guess that marking is the previous sign (until the Dieppe raid or before 1943) of the 1st Armoured Brigade. I checked out a picture of the Dieppe raid and on the front of a 14th Armoured Regt tank (Calgary Regt), I saw the same sign and during the WWII, the Three Rivers Regt was in the same brigade.

Does somebody can confirm this affirmation?

Yes, the Calgary Regiment and the Three Rivers Regiment were both in the same Brigade. Sometime after Dieppe, the Formation sign of the Brigade changed from that which appears in the photo to the one your probably thinking of (the image below). I'm not at home at the moment, so I have no access to my notes, but I'll post the effective date of the change in Formation sign once I'm home.

Cheers

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by M38CDNBill
After few researchs, I guess that marking is the previous sign (until the Dieppe raid or before 1943) of the 1st Armoured Brigade. I checked out a picture of the Dieppe raid and on the front of a 14th Armoured Regt tank (Calgary Regt), I saw the same sign and during the WWII, the Three Rivers Regt was in the same brigade.

Does somebody can confirm this affirmation?

The sign incorporates the "Ram" which was also used as a formation patch until shortly after Dieppe.

[Lynn Eades]

I have a Dodge wc55. It was painted in" Forest green" (Marine Corps colours) It was originally painted in "olive green",and I believe it to have been repainted in forest green before being issued to its Marine corp unit.
What I'm suggesting here is that, as big as the Marine Corp is, The factory didn't stop and clean out its paint gear and start again.
When you think about it, all the components come from different areas, to meet at assembly. they are already painted on arrival, and go together to form the complete vehicle. Any variation in colour is going to be an extra on the assembly line, just as my Dodge's Marine Corp's "forest green was.
To add weight to what i say, The Jeep bodies for both Ford and Willys from some time in 1943 were all contracted to the Budd company, the wheels were made by Kelsey, the axles by spicer, etc.
All component parts came together at the factory, In the same way as there was no single manufacturer for the M1 carbine (no one company made all the bits)
I would suggest (but dont know) Chris, that your Canadian contract Jeeps, were built as standard, and then taken to one side for the "superficial" "contractrual" requirements.
If I am correct on this, and if indeed your Jeep was painted in Canadian Kahki, I believe it would be a "top coat"over the original olive.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Survivor featured at G503.com
Military Jeep Model: Willys MB
Serial Number: 155818
Frame Number: MB155818
Data Plate Material: Brass
Date of Delivery: Thursday July 2nd, 1942
Submitted By: James Pringle
Location of Jeep: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Notes/Comments: Vehicle was one of the 11000 that Canada bought during WW2. Has Willys script on rear panel and lifting rings as per the CDLV (Contract Demand Light Vehicle)505. It never went overseas but it was a sad mess after 50 plus years of abuse and hard weather. Reengined with a 2A engine now.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Nowhere I can find the exact and complete details about CDLV jeeps. Some snippets here and there, it would be nice to compile a complete list of the specifications plus pictures here on MLU.

Here are examples of

CDLV-242 data plate

CDLV-505 data plate



Courtesy of dataplates4u.com

[Hanno Spoelstra]

sign writing in progress: "Unidentified soldier stencilling numbers on the hood of a jeep, England, 21 December 1943"

[Hanno Spoelstra]

One more pic, in colour even. Source: canadiansoldiers.com.

Markings and unit, according to John McGillivray:
-Division sign (yellow maple leaf on a blue background) indicates that it belongs to the 2nd Canadian Infantry Division.
-The red over blue AoS with the number 42 - 4th Field Regiment Royal Canadian Artillery
- Tac Sign - the blue square with the bottom left (viewers right) corner in red - the second battery of the Regiment - 14th Field Battery.

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

The information provided by Wim quoting "the standerdised wartime jeep 1941-45" is quite wrong I believe as it does not match what I have observed in Canadian contract jeeps in the last 30 years of research. The WD numbers are wrong, as are the dates of production. CDLV 505 was produced in at least three distinct production batches so some are early stamped grille(no BODL, WILLYS script) and some have later features (BODL, no script, trailer sockets, Jerrycan carrier).

The CDLV 241, 242 and 505 jeeps did not have USA registration numbers assigned to the best of my knowledge. They were custom made by Willys for Canada. Some were crated at the Willys factory for shipment overseas (ref. CDLV 241/242 contract). All of these jeeps had the 4 lifting rings.

Canada did indeed buy other "off the shelf" jeeps. I used to own a Ford GPW made in April 1943 that had been used at the Defence Research Board at Suffield, Alberta post-WWII and had a DND number. Last year I was given another 1943 Ford, likely ex-Canadian. I have encountered other ex-Canadian GPWs in Canada and most of these seem to be about April 1943 production. Overseas at the end of hostilities in Europe, Canada had quite a mix of Willys and Ford jeeps.



COLIN

[chris vickery]

Colin, my MB was mfg around Aug 31, 1942 or possibly Sept 1, 1942.
Trying to make it as correct as possible, I could therefore use a non script body, add the BODL assy and eliminate the lifting rings and still be OK?

[wim sikkelbein]

Colin,

What can i say, it's always tricky quoting from a book. Could you provide us with more accurate data on the WD numbers and production data?

Wim

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra in Dodge D-15 and D-60 info:
Here's another wartime pic of a D15. It was identified by Steve Guthrie on the missing-lynx.com forum as National Archives of Canada photo nr. PA140205, taken near Camobasso. Unusually, the jeep is of interest too as it is a Canadian contract one.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by chris vickery
Hanoo, it is funny you should mention obtaining snippets here and there. this seems to be what I have been finding as well, as there is no definative one stop place to find all the info.
It seems some fellows with info are not exactly forthcoming in sharing, that is they hoard it for their own personal pleasure (its mine all mine mentality)
At any rate, it would be good to put all the Canadian contract info in one place.
I will try and get all the details down on the forum as time permits and I come across whatever I have.
I do value the opinions of all in this discussion and surely arguements will crop up on specific points.
As far as the colour thing goes, it seems to me that even the experts disagree on what is right or wrong.
Going from the paint as it appears on parts of my 505 contract jeep, they certainly appear to my eye to be the same as US 33070 colour.
Even the US based guys can't agree on specific colours on their own jeeps so this is one of these quandries that may or may not ever be answered. As for my jeep, it will be painted in standard US colour as found.
Thoughts anyone?

Just continuing cutting and pasting snippets of information here until we have all the facts.

In Maple Leaf Jeeps (Wheels & Tracks issue no.1), Bart Vanderveen writes (bold font added by me):

• "Our copy of Parts List TM-10-1512 of April 1942 (Willys-Overland MB 'Government Truck') has a rear pocket containing a Parts Price List and two separate lists of (a) Parts peculiar to the US Marine Corps Truck and (b) Parts peculiar to the Light Utility Vehicle built for the Canadian Government. Both lists give different parts numbers for scores of items, many of which differed from the US Army versions only in colour. Included are such major assemblies as the frame, the body and others such as hood (bonnet) and windshield (windscreen)."

I feel this is an important piece of information adding to the other pieces pointing towards the Canadian Jeeps being painted a different colour than the standard US Olive Drab.
The challenge continues to endorse this line of thought and to determine which colour it was. During 1941- 42 the Standard Camouflage Colour Shades ( S.C.Cs.) came into use alongside and then supplanting the greens from the period before that. The basic shade was Khaki Green 3 or S.C.C. 2, while during 1942- 44 M.T.P. 46/4A prescribed S.C.C. 2 as “Basic Paint” for vehicles.

When exactly were the Canadian contract Jeeps ordered?

From the visual clues listed here I'd say the most likely colour is Khaki Green 3, as this dark rich yellow-green would weather and age into what looks a lot like US Olive Drab?

Thoughts, anyone?

Thanks,
Hanno

[servicepub (RIP)]

Coming soon (in fact I approved the proof last week and expect delivery by 24 August.)

http://www.servicepub.com/images/jeep%20cover2.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by servicepub
Coming soon (in fact I approved the proof last week and expect delivery by 24 August.)

Great Clive!

Can you tell us whether this book lists Canadian contract numbers, serial number and census number ranges, delivery dates, build specs, colour, etc., etc. (i.e. everything the Canadian vehicle afficionado would want to know)?

Thanks,
Hanno

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

Chris Vickery wrote:

Colin, my MB was mfg around Aug 31, 1942 or possibly Sept 1, 1942. Trying to make it as correct as possible, I could therefore use a non script body, add the BODL assy and eliminate the lifting rings and still be OK?

Canadian contract W-LU 440-M-PERS-1 CDLV 505 last batch of jeeps (technically although they are part of the MB serial number sequence and have the MB chassis according to the dash data plate, they are not MBs but rather are a sub-variant) made between Aug 31 to Sept 2 1942 were approx SN MB 170383 - 171286 (based upon known surviving examples +/or data plates recorded in my data base which has 1,539 WWII jeeps plus many post-war Canadian jeeps, trailers, Ferrets etc. These jeeps had:
1. Black out drive light on left fender
2. CDLV 505 data plates (including the special manuals one on dash over the steering column)
3. Three stud spare tire carrier
4. NO "WILLYS" script
5. Did have Jerrican carrier
6. Did have safety rings for pintle hook
7. Did have trailer socket for electrical connection.
8. Did have the four lifting rings (note they are NOT towing rings. USMC special contract jeeps also had these four lifting rings and as well two front tow hooks on top of frame horns but Canadian jeeps did not have the two tow hooks.

The parts manuals go into detail for Canadian changes e.g. a minor wiring change in the light switch.

Evidence indicates that the convoy light was added in UK as was the convoy light switch. Also added in UK were the blackout head light guards and special black out headlight (I have one NOS and have several replicas of the BO headlight guard but would like an original - found 3 but could not talk owners out of any.)

Hanno - Regarding the new book on Canadian jeeps coming out from Service Publications - I expect it will be good and will use material from our national archives in Ottawa but it will not have all the details that collectors want as the series is not aimed at collectors and restorers, but rather at the casual market. It will be worth buying however as the series is a good overview of the various Canadian vehicles.

[JRRDixon]

Originally Posted by Colin Macgregor Stevens

Chris Vickery wrote:
Canadian contract W-LU 440-M-PERS-1 CDLV 505 last batch of jeeps (technically although they are part of the MB serial number sequence and have the MB chassis according to the dash data plate, they are not MBs but rather are a sub-variant) made between Aug 31 to Sept 2 1942 were approx SN MB 170383 - 171286 (based upon known surviving examples +/or data plates recorded in my data base which has 1,539 WWII jeeps plus many post-war Canadian jeeps, trailers, Ferrets etc.

I did recently stumble across two sets of data plates.

Both CDLV 505 plates on brass stamped
Chassis 170319
Engine 176690
8-31-42

Chassis 170812
Engine Blurred in picture
8-31-42

They are in a private collection.

[JT Kweens]

Hey guy/gals

I first want to say thanks for all the information you guys have recorded here for the 505's.

I got good new I have found one of our lost CDLV 505 Jeeps. PO though it was a 46 and was planing to use it for parts for a CJ-3A. DOB 7-1-42. She is in extremely rough shape. Still trying to figure her out. Been luck and have found a correct T-84/Dana 18, combat rims and frame for her.

But I do find we lack of newer picture of current 505's. Been trying to find what the dash should look like, and I would love to see everyone's projects.

[Gavin E.]

Evening all, to resurrect this thread; i acquired Canadian Slat serial 118916. with a Complete restore able body. Unfortunately some where along the line the engine was swapped with a Chevy 350 and the frame hacked up.

Since I have gotten it, I have found a Canadian Slat Engine 200 serial numbers off with a REME tag from 52; I have the correct head/ oil pan and found the right transfer case and transmission casting. I am hoping to have this restored over the next 2 years. The frame was gone; but i have a line on a Canadian slat frame, (premium price ) It will live again,

This thread has been great for photos; If anyone knows of or has a correct wiper motor or other slat parts they are will to part with please message me. i have lots of MB and M38 parts and a F marked head to trade.

kind regards,
Gavin

[M38CDNBill]

Hi Slat grille enthusiasts,

A friend of mine has found a slat grille near my town in Quebec. He found a CDLV 242 contract and the SN is 120446. The body number stamped on the gusset is 22244. He's very excited of this gem despite the bad shape of this jeep. Here is the first two pictures of the data plate and the general view of this Slat.

[Eric B]

Hello Hanno and all.

Colin is correct in that this book on Canadian WW2 Jeeps gives basic information.

I am in the process of creating a book with all of the details which you are asking for and more, directed towards the restorer.
I am sure Colin is working on one as well . You can't have too many jeep books eh?

Any information provided by any of the readers would be usefull, even if i already have it. Unlike the US we do not have a list of War Department numbers or Serial numbers in our archives and people like myself and Colin are depending on the collectors to contact us and provide what they have or know, including original photos and mods.

Thanks

Eric

[servicepub (RIP)]

Hanno,

Colin and Eric have already answered on my behalf but I will elaborate. The Weapons of War series is designed for the modeller, museum visitor, veteran and youth markets and not for the 1:1 scale enthusiast. Nonetheless, it has been my experience that these booklets are so well researched that they contain much new information, as well as previously unseen photos, that they are a benefit to this group also.
I know that Eric has dug up the original contracts and has all sorts of information available for the "big" book on Canadian jeeps. This may take a while before it comes out but it will probably run 200 pages and will have a substantial number of colour images.
The input from restorers and collectors is very important as the DND and WD census numbers list for Canadian vehicles is non-existant. Although it cannot be 100% accurate, the book will provide 'ranges' of numbers which will be of enormous use.
Thanks to all for your ongoing support. In addition to "The WWII Jeep in Canadian Service" I will be releasing "The Armoured Autocar in Canadian Service" at the same time.

http://www.servicepub.com/images/jeep%20cover2.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Colin, Eric, Clive,

Thanks for your replies. I will eagerly await Eric's Canadian Jeep monograph, but in the mean time I would like to encourage the forum members to collect as much as possible data on the Candian Contract Jeeps here.

I myself am very much interested in the configuration of the various batches, as an aid to visual recognition.

Thanks,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

"An unidentified officer of The Lorne Scots (Peel, Dufferin and Halton Regiment) stencilling the regiment's identification number on a jeep, England, ca. 30 May-1 June 1943" ( source ).

Nice picture showing W-LU 440-M-PERS-1 details:
- rear lifting ring behind bumperette
- three stud spare tire carrier
- "WILLYS" script
- no Jerrycan carrier
- no safety rings for pintle hook
- no trailer socket for electrical connection
- note white painted rear differential cover, so British lighting is most likely fitted

Does this make it a CDLV 242 contract jeep?

Thanks,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Another picture (from Bart Vanderveen's The Jeep) of a CDLV 242 slat grill jeep, note it has two headlight guards. Usually they had only one, fitted to the left hand headlight, didn't they?

H.

[Barry Hampton]

Hanno, the Lorne Scots Jeep I would say is definitely 242 contract. Please note the body male fittings for some sort of enclosure. Mine also has this, but not all Canadian contract ones have them.
The second photo I have seen before and is captioned as Monty in General Crerars Jeep. The hood number is unusual as it seems to be 116102 - not a 421 or 423 prefix. My slat grill is drilled for headlamp guards on both sides but most photos show one only on left and bridge plate on right. This probably fits with the original 241/242 contract ordered late 41 "for 2000 vehicles delivered by 15th Feb 42, which stated "Two thousand "Defence Aid" blackout lighting equipment, hooded type, in accordance with the specifications referred to in Article 5 hereof. The equipment will be installed on the cars covered by Items 1 and 3 above"
Items 1 and 3 relate to order for 1500 and 500 Jeeps. Article 5 is a full list of specifications "in accordance with the United States Quartermaster Corps Specifications L.P./91/997A, subject to all changes to said specifications.......up to and including October 22 1941"
Specifically the "Defence Aid" lights orders a single front headlamp mounted on the left side but with a pigtail sufficiently long enough to mount the lamp on the right if needed. Radiator grill extensions provided on both sides and rear tail lamps (2) will be duplicates of the right hand tail light provided for in the US Blackout specification.
If anyone has a copy of the USQMC Specification above, we may be getting somewhere.

Hope this helps.

[Barry Hampton]

Amendment to my last - General Crerars Jeep appears to be CM 1165501. The colour phot Hanno posted earlier is CM 166102.

I tend to note CM bonnet numbers for slat grills but misread my notes.

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

Lorne Scots jeep in photo earlier in this discussion: Could be either CDLV-242 or early CDLV-505. They are the same at the rear. Early production CDLV-505 were script WILLYS (April and July production). I used to own MB 155796 CDLV 505 and it was script.

Some jeeps were fitted with both headlights as blackout. Note there was a special headlight used in that case (I have one NOS). One survived with both guards in place and was rescued from a farm in England though back of jeep had been cutaway. As it was only used on farm, the blackout headlight guards remained in place all those years! I have a photo of it. Here is data on that jeep from my data base of WWII jeeps.

SN MB 118865 CDLV-242 Original WD # CM1165643
Tub # 22261 Orig Engine 120218 Present engine MB248804 Made Wed 2-11-42
"Ex-Capt. Justin Stuart Mallinson farm vehicle. Bought at auction (?) in Essex for £10 and registered as HXE 67. Driven to Dorset and used on farm there until 1983. Stored in barn 1983-1987. Sold to Tim Bourbon NOV 1987. Then under restoration. In Nov 1987, still had original blackout headlight guards in place. Rear of body was cut off and discarded by farmer. Under restoration 1989."



COLIN STEVENS

[Barry Hampton]

Interesting stuff Colin. I based my opinion of Lorne Scots being 242 as the Jeep in the background (assuming these are all Lorne Scots vehicles)has the early one piece wheels which pre-date the 505s and the Jeep does seem to have had some wear.

Do you know what type of enclosure the studs on the body were for?

Do you have any info on 119343 (mine)? I know it was sold in 46 to a farmer and road registered. Sold in mid/late 70s and restored. I bought it 81 and shown on log book as 2nd keeper.