WD / Census Number tags

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

1. However GM Ltd ,when they first started assembly of CMPs, allocated 'GML 1' etc. which was presumably before they knew what numbers were allocated...I assume that they were driven to Chilwell for numbers to be painted on.

2. As regards assembly companies that I know of that assembled Canadian and British vehicles, the photo evidence shows that Census Numbers were allocated as per vehicle as it went down the line, having the numbers painted on after the camo had been put on, presumably in accordance with batch allocations. Canadian vehicles had CMD numbers applied pending Bordon allocating numbers. They were delivered from Southampton, Slough, Liverpool, Goole, we know with CMD numbers. The RCOC Vehicle Census Branch was initially located in Aldershot, as part of 1 Det, RCOC, Aldershot, and then moved to Bordon Camp in June 1940. Vehicles assembled in Southampton were initially issued from around 8th June 1940 at the Mechanical Transport Vehicle Reception Depot at Bordon. After the RCOC had moved into Bordon, vehicles were delivered to what became the 1 Canadian Corps Ordnance Depot (RCOC MT Depot). This, with the Census Branch, transferred from 1 Det to 2 Det in April 1940.

3. As regards Bedfords I can attest from photo evidence that Luton delivered in 1940-41 vehicles with WD census Numbers that had been painted on the line. This was after trade plates were no longer required for delivery.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

3. As regards Bedfords I can attest from photo evidence that Luton delivered in 1940-41 vehicles with WD census Numbers that had been painted on the line. This was after trade plates were no longer required for delivery.

David,

I think things may have changed regarding Bedfords in particular after 1941-ish. Looking a original record cards for that make from around 1942-3 onward, census numbers did not run in any kind of order to chassis numbers. My guess is that any requiring fault rectification or any other hold ups did not arrive at VRD until later hence discrepencies.

[rewdco]

Chris,
Don't know if this can help: I have been wondering for quite a long time what the "data tag" next to the girder forks of this motorcycle was for. Unfortunately, I can't read the exact text on it, but it looks like a number to me... Could it be the same kind of tag you were talking about? Please note: this bike has no census number painted on the petrol tank...???
Cheers,
Jan

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by rewdco

Chris,
Please note: this bike has no census number painted on the petrol tank...???

Jan,

The registration number, GXU... is one of a batch used by Civil Defence and similar organisations. The photo caption say " volunteer DR", they could have been for the National Fire Service perhaps?

[rewdco]

Richard, David,

You're reading my mind... Indeed, I was also pretty sure that this bike was used by the NFS or a similar organisation. But census numbers were issued for each and every WD/CO that left the factory during the war...???

Could it be that these motorcycles originally had a census number, but when they were taken over by the NFS, this number was omitted?

Cheers,
Jan

[Rich Payne]

I have seen reference to the Canadian Forces in the U.K. receiving block issues of tags and seals displaying census numbers for fitment as Chris says to the steering columns and the fork parts on motorcycles as a form of permanent identification. These were issued in blocks alongside the WD Census numbers that were block- allocated to Canadian-owned vehicles.

This seems perhaps sensible in a situation where the temptation to 'acquire' a replacement vehicle from whatever source if the original became damaged or lost would have been considerable.

It would seem logical that the seal was removed and returned for cancellation when the vehicle was officially struck off charge.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Richard, thanks for that. I don't know if anyone knew or knows of Tony Beadle, formerly of American Car World, Triumph World, Porsche World? His father worked for the Ministry of Supply from 1940 and was based I think at the AEC works in Southall. He covered the Vauxhall boxing plant cum repair works in Hendon, and various other west London contractors. It seems that the M of S inspected vehicles supplied under Contracts or Demands, and I can imagine that if a vehicle was not accepted by the Inspector after driven off the line, it was not taken into stock and thus allocated a number. Up until 1941 this may not have occurred simply because the demand was so great....delivery was all-important and rectification could be done later. After that there was a luxury of being able to get rectification work done in the factory before delivery. I can also imagine that the VRDs were swamped in practice by defects and this led to the call for remedial work to be carried out at source.

Going back to spring-autumn 1940, the Southampton CMD was regrettably not immune from the delivery of defective vehicles, and apart from vehicles delivered to Bordon being sent back for rectification work, major problems were experienced with axles that required input from the RCOC in Aldershot to sort out. The return of vehicles from the RCOC depot meant that they were subject to the Luftwaffe's blitz on Southampton 30 Nov/1 Dec and thus lost. The Salvage unit at Bordon then came into its own...which is another story!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Jan, that motorcycle has a London County Council civilian registration, dating it seems to late war (GXU started August 1943 and ran in theory to November 1946). Other m/cs that had civilian registrations included the St John Ambulance and Red Cross, and Auxiliary / National Fire Service. I wondered if the number you mentioned was a stock number for the frame?

Note also the Road Fund Licence holder with no visible, so far as I can see, tax disc. It may have been exempt as being on His Majesty's Service under the Defence of the Realm Regulations. Fire, Police and Ambulance vehicles were also 'exempt' (actually as now I think they had to be taxed but had a 'nil' charge) but for different reasons as they were emergency vehicles. Or it was required to be taxed but at the nil rate and removing the disc eliminated any dating of the photo.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I think this machoine is being assembled for the Civil Defence. It is in the batch of shots of a Civil Defence solo and sidecar-combo school.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

This was a CD DR training school. Note the nice line-up of machines!

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

This was a CD DR training school. Note the nice line-up of machines!

David,

Most of those machines have Royal Navy serials on them

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Jan, War Department Census Numbers were allocated to vehicles that were purchased, requisitioned, gifted to, or whatever and acquired by the Ministry of Supply for the War Office & Air Ministry, and by the Admiralty for the Royal Navy & Royal Marines. Up to 1940 these had to have civilian registrations and the Census Number was just that! From 1940, no tax disc was required, and the requirement to register vehicles (in the Middlesex County Council in practice) was abandoned in favour of reliance on the WD Number.

The Ministry of Supply with the Ministry of War Transport also acquired vehicles of all types for Government users, such as staff cars for official use, Air Ministry staff, Salvage Corps, local authorities, police, fire services, et al. These had civilian registrations either in Government-allocated batches by the Middlesex County Council, or by London County Council, or regional local authorities. In addition there were various ambulance authorities, church and religious groups, Ministry of Food, etc. vehicles that were often military types with civilian or military tyres but carrying civilian registrations.

[rewdco]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

This was a CD DR training school. Note the nice line-up of machines!

Thanks for sharing this one with us David!

This was the first time that I saw a "normal" picture with the rare "model CO" (not the "WD/CO", only 100 of these model CO's have been built, in two contracts of 50 each for the Royal Navy). I had only seen it in official Royal Enfield publicity pictures before...

Jan

(To Chris Vickery: sorry for hi-jacking your thread Chris... )

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

It seems that the M of S inspected vehicles supplied under Contracts or Demands, and I can imagine that if a vehicle was not accepted by the Inspector after driven off the line, it was not taken into stock and thus allocated a number. Up until 1941 this may not have occurred simply because the demand was so great....delivery was all-important and rectification could be done later. After that there was a luxury of being able to get rectification work done in the factory before delivery. I can also imagine that the VRDs were swamped in practice by defects and this led to the call for remedial work to be carried out at source.

David,

All that makes perfect sense, with inexperienced labour, faults were bound to occur and with parts and facilities at the factory, it makes sense to rectify there, anyway, it is doubtful the MoS inspector would sign them out until they were in order. A thought has just occured, that perhaps the reason that census numbers are out of line with chassis numbers, is that any vehicle held back were not numbered until signed out. The VRD were no more than open storage areas, often on grass. They would accept vehicles, then issue from there once demands came in for that particular type.