Whats This One ?

[maverick]

Hi All a neighbour has asked me to help him identify this vehicle as one of his relatives is in the photo. The only similar ones i can see are AEC/MATADORS types any ideas ?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by maverick
Hi All a neighbour has asked me to help him identify this vehicle as one of his relatives is in the photo. The only similar ones i can see are AEC/MATADORS types any ideas ?

I will go for the AEC Armoured Demolition vehicle, based on Matador running gear. Cannot find a photo to confirm it though. The soldiers could be Royal Engineers, but two of them may be civilian workers attached, check their caps. Something in my memory about Ukrainians, who worked with RE after the war, clearing up unexploded bombs, etc.

[Derek Barton]

Looks like a Deacon 6 lbr Anti-Tank SP with a canvas cover to disguise it. The sign just visible on the right front is a Royal Artillery tac sign.

[T. Metsovitis]

Could it be the ammunition carrier version of the Deacon? I have only ever seen the rear view that appears in Vanderveen's directory, so this may be an ultra rare vehicle!

Fyll

[gordon]

I always wondered what it would look like with the canvas on...

You can just about see the sheetmetal corners added to the top of the armoured hull

[Les Freathy]

I think i would go along with Fyll on this one as the armoured ammo carrier, its rare to see a photo with tilt frames. The Deacon had the same half cab design but this photo looks as if it has been taken later in the war say Italy or even Europe although photographic evidence of them in action must be almost non exsistant. The demolition vehicle that Richard suggests is in fact based on the armoured command vehicle i have a couple of photos but cant lay my hands on them at the moment. a couple of photos of the ammo carrier and a drawing arre posted here. Going back to the Deacon if iam correct most of these were sold or given to Turkey after the middle east campaign finished i wonder where they ended up, after all the Matador was no rust bucket and these had no wooden frame cabs to rot, food for thought maybe
cheers
:Les

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Les Freathy
2nd

Les,

This is the one I was thinking of, not having recollection of seeing a demo vehicle, it was a wild guess. Derek said he could see RA markings in the photo but I cannot make them out, then this photo you have posted of the rear of an ammo carrier, shows the census number, starting 890** and I am sure now, that in the original photo the census number also starts 890, so you have cracked it.

Would still be interested to know who the two guys wearing caps are, they do not appear to be in British uniform.

[Derek Barton]

The markings on the right hand front of the vehicle are as follows:
Top - an RA tac sign with the letter A and the top right quadrant in red. This indicates a vehicle of the first Bty in the regt. The letter A is usually given to a gun.

Middle - probably a Div sign, possibly 7 Armd Div?

Bottom - RA AoS sign number 7?. This could be 77 for an Anti-Tank Rgt in an Armd Div.

[maverick]

Ta very much for all the replies to this post i will be passing all the information on to my neighbour who will now know a bit more about their relative. Also they are now aware of the Maple Leaf Website themselves so can watch this post.

[T. Metsovitis]

As the photo that started this thread is so interesting, would it be possible for it to be posted a little larger, so that more details can be seen?

Thanks

Fyll

[maverick]

[T. Metsovitis]

Thank for the fast service, that helps see things more easily.

Fyll

[maverick]

No problem thanks for all the input.

[Nick Balmer]

Hello,

I wonder if the two soldiers wearing peaked caps could be Turkish?

As Les has already said many of the Deacons ended up in Turkey, and it might be logical for their associated ammunition carriers to go their to.

There were several British training missions to Turkey, handing over equipment.

Could this be what is shown in the photo. Members of a British training detachment and the Turkish trainees to whom the truck is being transferred?

Regards

Nick Balmer

[25pdrfg]

I could probably have egg on my face here but could it be they are germans? I know a lot were working for the Allies at the end of the war.

[mudeng]

My two-penneth, as it has an "S" census number, it indicates SP artillery, so I would guess it is a redundant ammo carrier, fitted with a tilt, used as a GS truck.
The demolition vehicles were converted AEC Dorchesters.

George.

[Radek]

Hi,
I am so sorry for not well scan, but the book is too thick.
The title is "Armoured command Vehicle, LP, 4x4"

Radek

[Noel Burgess]

Havn't seen much information about these Amo carriers but I dont think they worked with Deacons - see Nick's comments
My understanding is that they were conversions of a batch of Deacons which were in production when the Deacon was -er- made redundant. There are a number of references which suggest they may have been used in Normandy as "tenders" to Sextons but no subsequent metion of there use.
Does anyone know more - were they used elsewhere? why did they seem to be dropped?

[colin jones]

Funny thing about that vehicle is the front looks remarkably like my mother inlaw, and she too is a weapons carrier. :witch

[Daniel Treasure]

If your mum in law reads this you may need some armour, I recoment a Fox or bren gun carrier!

[mudeng]

I hope this is not too small, but it comes from Mike Connifords series, and here it says that a number (?) of Deacons were converted to armoured ammunition carriers.
The conversions were carried out in the UK, so not all were sold to Turkey.

It makes me think that with the build up to the invasion, anything that was excess to requirements in other theatres was used for transport and load carrying, hence the use of converted portee Bedford and Austin 3 tonners.

Just another two penneth.

George.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by mudeng
I hope this is not too small, but it comes from Mike Connifords series, and here it says that a number (?) of Deacons were converted to armoured ammunition carriers.

George,

As the subject vehicle, carries a Census number with S prefix, this denotes it as being Self Propelled Artillery, so it looks like it is a converted Deacon as the number is only 15 away from the Ammo Carrier that Les posted earlier.

Have to admit I was off track with my initial ID

[Radek]

the same as before

[mudeng]

Seems fairly conclusive then.
A "de-frocked" Deacon converted to a load carrier, ammunition perhaps.

Interesting thought though about what could be discovered in Turkey, I knew that some of the Deacons were sold off, and it makes you wonder.

George.

[Derek Barton]

Seems fairly conclusive then. A "de-frocked" Deacon converted to a load carrier, ammunition perhaps.

Except why is it still marked as a gun? It carries a tac sign for a gun, the S with the census no. for an SP gun and what is probably the AoS number of an Armd Div A/Tk Rgt.

My money is still on it being a Deacon, fitted for some reason with a canvas cover.

[mudeng]

Hi Derek,
Yes a good point, though I think the census number stays with the vehicle, even though it has been re-classified.

Can't say the same about AoS though. But why go to all that bother to cover up the gun, and make it pretty much unuseable.
At this stage of the war, there was little point in camouflage to make something appear different to what it was.

It could be used as an ammunition carrier, and still retain the AoS markings.

Would the ammunition supply vehicles in an RA unit have those markings ?

I am only going by the reference that "they were converted in the UK etc etc".

George

[Derek Barton]

Would the ammunition supply vehicles in an RA unit have those markings ?

No, not the tac sign which should be either Amn and a number or possibly Q and a number.

The AoS number is possible as all the RA units in an Armd Div had AoS nos. starting with 7.

A possible answer to the cover on the gun? is it is about to be returned to stores.

It would be useful if we knew where and when the photo was taken, even better if we knew the unit.

I am just not happy about the Tac sign, if this is an ammo carrier. If it is a rebuilt gun then it presumably would have been repainted by workshops so why re-mark it as a gun.

[Noel Burgess]

A pair of Sextons, Guns A & B, would have an amunition vehicle between them as a "limber" which had the Tac Sign AB - maybe we can't see the B. These vehicles were usually half tracks but a few AEC seem to have been used for a short while.
Do not think any Deacons were used after N African campaign and that they were withdrawn before the end of the campaign.

Noel

[Derek Barton]

Thanks Noel, I had forgotten about the limber vehicles. On enlarging the photo, it would seem that there may just be room for a second letter on the part we can't see.

I remember reading recently of a regiment in NW Europe, I think a Sexton unit, being issued with armoured ammo trucks. Now if I can just remember which book ...............