4th PLDG Cloth Shoulder Insignia

[Bill Alexander]

Hi, The titles for the 4 PLDG's were produced in printed canvas pattern and embroidered melton pattern. The proper colour is white on dark blue (royal blue). Printed (or canvas) titles demand a premium price compared to the melton or embroidered type. The abbreviated 4 PLDG pattern for WW2, in either material, is not a commonly found item. The long spelled out title is more common and to my knowledge only found in the English pattern starch back or the embroidered melton wool pattern.
The use of the abbreviated and the long form titles appears to have changed about the time the 4 PLDG were changed back to an armoured car regiment from an infantry battalion. (In Italy the Plugs started out as the 1st Canadian Infantry Division armoured car recce regiment and then were converted to infantry from July 1944 until the transfer to Northwest Europe in March 1945.)
Values on items are very difficult to suggest. There is a strong demand for canvas / printed titles at this point in time, and they are in the $50 + range for many of the wartime Canadian regiments. Melton or starch backs sell for considerably less.

[Brian H]

Originally Posted by Bill Alexander

The use of the abbreviated and the long form titles appears to have changed about the time the 4 PLDG were changed back to an armoured car regiment from an infantry battalion. (In Italy the Plugs started out as the 1st Canadian Infantry Division armoured car recce regiment and then were converted to infantry from July 1944 until the transfer to Northwest Europe in March 1945.)

I know this an old post by Bill, but I thought I could add my .2 cents. My Grandfather served with the PLDG in NW Europe. He brought back two canvas 4 PLDG shoulder titles. I assumed they were issued to him at the time of him joining the Regiment in March 45 however, they could have easily been souvenirs from older members of the regiment. Or maybe he was issued old titles while in England and waiting to join the regiment? Is there any proof of mixed title use in 45 possibly due to shortage of the full abbreviated versions?

[Bill Alexander]

Hello Brian, Since that posting in 2006, new information has changed the story. The abbreviated titles, either embroidered or printed were the only authorized pattern until the summer of 1945. The initial issue of titles for 1 CID were embroidered titles circa 1941, replaced by printed pattern sometime in 1943. The "rules" were that embroidered titles were to be used up before printed were issued, but that was only partially followed. Some personnel were issued printed insignia in their reinforcement depots and other soldiers kept embroidered abbreviated titles for their best BD. The printed titles were almost universally detested by soldiers. They faded and frayed and did not look as nice as the embroidered pattern. The printed pattern was the only authorized issue pattern of title from 1943 through the end of the war.
In the summer of 1945, the IV PLDG applied for a new title, fully spelled out. The ones illustrated on Mike Reintjes' post were a British made pattern acquired by the Regiment at their expense. It was not authorized as CMHQ inidcated the unit was being repatriated to Canada. Of interest, there are images of the IV PLDG wearing full titles in the immediate post war era, and then wearing the abbreviated title circa 1948-49.
To make a long answer short, the correct titles were the ones you found in your grandfather's accumulation.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Bill Alexander

Hello Brian, Since that posting in 2006, new information has changed the story. The abbreviated titles, either embroidered or printed were the only authorized pattern until the summer of 1945. The initial issue of titles for 1 CID were embroidered titles circa 1941, replaced by printed pattern sometime in 1943. The "rules" were that embroidered titles were to be used up before printed were issued, but that was only partially followed. Some personnel were issued printed insignia in their reinforcement depots and other soldiers kept embroidered abbreviated titles for their best BD. The printed titles were almost universally detested by soldiers. They faded and frayed and did not look as nice as the embroidered pattern. The printed pattern was the only authorized issue pattern of title from 1943 through the end of the war.
In the summer of 1945, the IV PLDG applied for a new title, fully spelled out. The ones illustrated on Mike Reintjes' post were a British made pattern acquired by the Regiment at their expense. It was not authorized as CMHQ inidcated the unit was being repatriated to Canada. Of interest, there are images of the IV PLDG wearing full titles in the immediate post war era, and then wearing the abbreviated title circa 1948-49.
To make a long answer short, the correct titles were the ones you found in your grandfather's accumulation.

So it follows that Michael's battledress with the fully spelled our regimental name in post 5 is a classic 'going home' battledress?

[Ed Storey]

Yes, the badged BD held in museums and private collections are the uniforms worn for the return home and do not necessarily reflect insignia that was worn earlier in the war.

[Brian H]

Originally Posted by Bill Alexander

Hello Brian, Since that posting in 2006, new information has changed the story. The abbreviated titles, either embroidered or printed were the only authorized pattern until the summer of 1945. The initial issue of titles for 1 CID were embroidered titles circa 1941, replaced by printed pattern sometime in 1943. The "rules" were that embroidered titles were to be used up before printed were issued, but that was only partially followed. Some personnel were issued printed insignia in their reinforcement depots and other soldiers kept embroidered abbreviated titles for their best BD. The printed titles were almost universally detested by soldiers. They faded and frayed and did not look as nice as the embroidered pattern. The printed pattern was the only authorized issue pattern of title from 1943 through the end of the war.
In the summer of 1945, the IV PLDG applied for a new title, fully spelled out. The ones illustrated on Mike Reintjes' post were a British made pattern acquired by the Regiment at their expense. It was not authorized as CMHQ inidcated the unit was being repatriated to Canada. Of interest, there are images of the IV PLDG wearing full titles in the immediate post war era, and then wearing the abbreviated title circa 1948-49.
To make a long answer short, the correct titles were the ones you found in your grandfather's accumulation.

Thanks for that response and update Bill. I've found very little on the PLDG titles online and most I have been able to find, has been on this site. Cheers.

[AlanOram]

Hello,
A huge thanks,
I joined the forum to see this thread fully. Was looking for images of 4PLDG on Google, an image posted was from this thread, lol. A group of us are reenacting the unit, here in Ottawa.
This information is a huge help, we went with the full name when we made shoulder flashes. Back to the drawing board!
Thanks again,
Alan