Snowmobiles and Penguins

[gordon]

The challenge for 2003 then is to come up with a genuine surviving Snomo or Penguin to add to the list.

Someone out there can find one.

Gordon

[Hanno Spoelstra]

For those of you who want to take up the challenge, read more about this intriguing vehicle on my Canadian Armoured Snowmobile web page.

Regards,
Hanno

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

Two Exercise Muskox Penguins and one unmodified so far:

1. Penguin which appears to be #8 from Ex Muskox (and the one commanded by my father in law) is apparently with the Bombardier Museum now.

2. Penguin modifed - original cab cut off, later model 1/2 of a cab added. In North Dakota. Still in use.

3. Cdn Armd Snowmobile - Unmodifed. In Russia in a museum.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Colin Macgregor Stevens
Two Exercise Muskox Penguins and one unmodified so far:
*snip*
3. Cdn Armd Snowmobile - Unmodifed. In Russia in a museum.

Make that two unmodified ones so far - see Canadian Armoured Snowmobile:
- Museum of Armoured Forces, Kubinka, Russia
- Italian Army museum, outside Rome, Italy

[Lars Ulvestad]

As a supplement to Canadian Armoured Snowmobile topic:

In Hanno's web page there are mentioned "Bombardier" snowmobiles as well: "Some 129 of these "Bombardier" snowmobiles were built, starting in the spring of 1942. Most of the vehicles were shipped to the U.K."

At least two of these excist in Norway and are still in daily use during the winter, the owners also had a third one as parts vehicle (only mechanical components left, body scrapped years ago). From the data plates of snowmobile one:

BOMBARDIER SNOWMOBILES
VALCOURT, QUE

VEHICLE CODE BHT 8 - SNOW - 1
CHASSIS SERIAL DND 100 - 80
ENGINE SERIAL 3G - 39552 F
TRANSMISSION SERIAL Z 23873
ORDER NO SM 2561
DATE OF MFG 10 - 15 - 42

Snowmobile two: CHASSIS SERIAL DND 100 - 81 and DATE OF MFG 10 - 16 - 42

The Ford V8 flatheads have been replaced by Chevrolet V8's two or three years ago. In many places the olive drab paint is still visible. The instrument cluster (round), horn button and pedals have "Ford" logo's. The vehicles still have the diluter switches, and the headlights are the same type as Cab 11/12 CMP

They are as far as I can understand of the "Bombardier" snowmobiles shipped to UK (Supply Mech) and have probably been bougth as surplus in UK shortly after the war. They have been in civilian use since late 40's in a Norwegian hotel up in the mountains.


I know there are one survivor in Kubinka, but are there any others of these 129 left?

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Lars
The armoured snowmobiles had Cadillac flat head engines in them..similar looking to the Ford flat head,but larger ....
Alex Blair

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Lars Ulvestad
At least two of these excist in Norway and are still in daily use during the winter, the owners also had a third one as parts vehicle (only mechanical components left, body scrapped years ago).

Lars, this is very exciting news! Could you get us some pictures of those "Bombardier" snowmobiles in Norway?

I know there are one survivor in Kubinka, but are there any others of these 129 left?

None that I know of.

Originally posted by Alex Blair
Lars
The armoured snowmobiles had Cadillac flat head engines in them..similar looking to the Ford flat head,but larger ....

Alex...Lars is talking about the Bombardier snowmobile, not the Canadian Armoured Snowmobile...

Regards,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Picture of the surviving Bombardier snowmobile at Kubinka, Russia:

[Lars Ulvestad]

I have pictures of the one with chassis serial DND 100 - 80, also detailed pictures of instruments, switches etc (two of the switch plates looks like from a 13 Cab "Ford" CMP, but one is rotated 90 degrees. But I need to make new paper copies to scan as most of the original paper copies was sent to Brian Asbury, Ontario in 1995. It will be done as soon as possible.

I will try to take pictures of the other one as well later in the winter.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Lars - when the word instruments comes up I get very excited. I have just finished reproducing all the early Ford gauge faces and switch plates in a high quality, full size vinyl sticker. These are the common ones seen on all Australian Ford CMPs and other Ford equipped vehicles such as the Bren Gun Carrier. I am very interested to find out what other vehicles had these instruments or plates fitted so images would be nice. I've attached an image of a silver switch plate. Is this the same? An earlier version of this plate was in brass. I'll be posting details of all the gauges on a main thread but if you are interested the 5 switch plate is $AUD8.50 and the 3 switch plate is $AUD6.50 plus postage. And so as not to leave the Chev owners out, the final production phase of the instrument scripting on the glass and the speedo itself is almost finished.

Aussie Bob

PS. I previewed the reply but didn't see the image. Maybe it comes up when posted. If not I'll have to learn how to do it.

[edited by moderator to include smaller image]

[gordon]

Can't keep a good topic down, eh? Don't they have e-mail in Ottowa ?
------------------------------------

Hello. I'm hoping you can help me answer a somewhat mysterious question.
Do you know for certain/have any evidence/can point me in the right direction regarding whether or not M29C Weasels were used by the Canadians during Operation Musk Ox in the mid-1940s? In order to accurately portray our Weasel, I must have confirmation of it being there, as you can likely appreciate.
Thank you very much for your help in this matter.

Sincerely,

Patricia Grimshaw
Assistant Historian/Historienne adjointe
Canadian War Museum/ Musée canadien de la guerre
330 Sussex Dr.
Ottawa, ON K1A 0M8
Canada
819-776-8640

[Lars Ulvestad]

Hello Bob,

I have found some pictures of the instruments and switch-plates, but if they are scanned the resolution needs to be very high to be able to read them. I dont know if it is possible to attach pictures with that high resolution. (I tried but the attachment was to large)

The switch plates have been "repainted" so it is not easy to read the text on the plates but they seem to be made of brass with etched text-areas.

The 3-switch plate looks like "Ford" 13 Cab CMP; from the top: FUEL, AUTOPULSE and IGNITION. The 5-switch plate is rotated 90 deegrees counter-clockwise, and so is the text on the plate (letters under each other). From left: DASH LAMPS, TAIL LAMPS, SIDE LAMPS, HEAD LAMPS and STOP LAMP ISO. ON to the top and OFF to the right of the switches in the 5-switch plate. Some of the switches looks original.

The speedometer is made by "Waltham" and range from 0 to 100 (mph?) clockwise, it looks to be in white colour with brown centre and speed-numbers. The instrument cluster looks to be in the same size as the speedometer, brown and with a "Ford" logo a little bit above the center. OIL on the top, BATT to the right, TEMP in the bottom and FUEL to the left. There is also one switch plate with OIL DILUTER and (diluter) SAFETY SWITCH.

Present are also:
Gear shift plate - etched brass
Supply - Mech 2561 - white plastic plate,
Notice about draining cooling system - steel or alu. plate
warning about driving on dry ground - white plastic plate

And in the engine compartement:
Data plate from manufacturer - brass
Instruction plate: EVANS COMPARTEMENT HEATER - maroon plastic

I hope I will have the other pictures recopied next week. But I think I will need to take more pictures to get better views as well as pictures of the other one.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Lars - the brass switch plate sounds the same as ours and is similar to the silver one I posted, apart from some scripting. Once I can get the resolution down I'll be able to post more images. The speedo is actually calibrated for K.P.H as I have one of these faces. I don't know how it got here apart from in an imported truck as we didn't go metric until the late 1960s. The K.P.H scripting should appear underneath the scale incorporated between the 2 top horizontal lines. This is the same location that Waltham used in some of the speedo faces to place their name. The 3 switch plate I haven't seen. I have never seen a reference to Autopulse and don't know what it means. I'd be interested in any images you can get for my collection.

[Don Dingwall]

Gord:
I have plenty of info on Musk Ox and the involvement of Weasels.
Get her to email me at dingwall@magma.ca

Cheers
Don

[gordon]

There's no e-mail address in her posting, hence my comment about e-mail there.

If you can find an e-mail for her please make contact - I copied that message from the M29C.org forum.

Gordon

[servicepub (RIP)]

patricia.grimshaw@warmuseum.ca

see http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/cwmen....html#research

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bob Moseley
The 3 switch plate I haven't seen. I have never seen a reference to Autopulse and don't know what it means. I'd be interested in any images you can get for my collection.

Bob,

Great to hear your are making those reproductions. I own a '43 F15A and need to redo the switch plates as they are painted over.
Re. Autopulse, this is the switch for the electric fuel pump, which was fitted to Fords built for the Indian Army and for those in use in hot climates. See a picture of the dash here:


(source: http://www.oldcmp.net/spvmanual.html)

As far as I know, all Ford dash 3-switch plates have the Autopulse script, even if the switch itself is not fitted. This is the main - or only - difference between Chevrolet and Ford switch plates.

Hanno

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Hanno - thanks for that info.The dash image you posted is familiar to me but it wasn't until you explained Autopulse that I suddenly spotted another detail I had overlooked on this dash configuration. Every Ford 3 switch plate I have seen in Oz doesn't have the centre hole punched out. This position never had a function. What I need now is an image or an original plate showing the Autopulse scripting so I can reproduce it for the relevant countries. I will also be reproducing the KPH speedo plate which by the way was calibrated to 100 whereas the MPH plates only went to 60. I am not aware of Chevrolet using these switch plates. The Chevrolet dashes I have seen have individual metal tags underneath each switch. The other quandry I have is when and why the plates were changed from brass to the silver colour.

Bob

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bob Moseley
Every Ford 3 switch plate I have seen in Oz doesn't have the centre hole punched out. This position never had a function.

I just found a picture of a Canadian production F15's dash in Australia - indeed the centre hole is not punched out:
http://www.oldcmp.net/Images/F15page/F15_5.jpg
Source: http://www.oldcmp.net/f15.html
This is no real surprise, as the Autopulse or electrical fuel pump was originally fitted to trucks built under Indian Army contracts only.

Originally posted by Bob Moseley
I am not aware of Chevrolet using these switch plates. The Chevrolet dashes I have seen have individual metal tags underneath each switch.

But don't forget Australian production Chevrolets differed quite a lot from Canadian ones. Off the top of my head, GM Holden only imported the chassis and drive line components, everything else was made locally. Australian Ford CMPs had much more Canadian content.

Hanno

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

M29C Water Weasels (note M29 Weasel is non-amphibious version)

Yes, there is proof of these being used on Exercise Muskox. I have some photos etc.

My father-in-law was on this exercise and commanded Penguin # 8.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

While talking to our Scottish MLUppers at Beltring this year, Nigel mentioned he saw a tracked vehicle the other day in Scotland with the same track layout as the Armoured Snowmobile. Gordon mentioned he knows the type of vehicle as the Pontiac - or rather - Bombardier Muskeg.

I did a quick search on the internet and came up with the following details from a 1959 FAO publication (see below). Now, I wonder if the Muskeg was actually based on the Armoured Snowmobile design? This could mean that a replica Snomo could be built on a Muskeg chassis....


"Bombardier Muskeg Tractor - Model H. D. W.
Specifications: Overall length, 15 ft. 3 in. (4.6 m.): width, 7 ft. 3 in. (2.2 m.); height, 7 ft. 4 in. (2.2 m.); platform length 10 ft. (3 m.). Max. speed 16 mph (25.7 km/h); payload capacity (max.) 6,000 lb. (2,720 kg.); turning radius 15 ft. (4.6 m.). Chrysler engine 6 cylinders; brake horse power 115 at 3,400 rpm. Track type-rubber belts with steel cross links. Track width 28 in. (71 cm.). Control - hydraulic through cylinders. Winch 3 speeds fwd, 1 rev.; control - inside operator's cab powered through transfer ease. Cable drum 9 in. (23 cm.) diameter by 131/2 in. (34 cm.) long. Cable drum flange 151/2 in. (39 cm.).
Bombardier Snowmobile Limited, Valcourt, Quebec, Canada."

[Hanno Spoelstra]

There you go, Gordon already found one!


Source: http://www.museebombardier.com/en/co...e1949_1958.htm

[Snowtractor]

...Mr.Bean in front of that tractor?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Snowtractor
...Mr.Bean in front of that tractor?

Well, like I said, "Gordon already found one"

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Also see "1939 to 1945: The war years" on the Bombardier museum site for two small pics and two video clips of the Armoured Snowmobile.

[Snowtractor]

That'll teach Gord! We had the same talk ( Gord & I ) about Muskeg tractors and armoured Bombies. The muskeg tractor came post war but I saw a track layout of them and except for one or two features they are identical. It would make a very good replica. If you have a look at the manual for the Armoured snomo that Alex has it shows , in good detail the make up of the top hull and drivers position. Perhaps a trip to Italy to flesh out the little pieces....and voila. And there are plenty of muskeg tractors still running about.
Sean

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Snowtractor
And there are plenty of muskeg tractors still running about.

On this web page I read "In the Netherlands, however, the snowmobile is sometimes used in the construction of dikes". Yikes! I should keep my eyes open for a surplus Muskeg over here then

[Snowtractor]

Wow, really revamped the site since I was last there. I like the quick time movies they have added of the snomos. Interesting the production of the muskeg tractor come in 49 that would seem about right for developemnt from the snomo with prototypes and retooling.
Sean

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Snowtractor
The muskeg tractor came post war but I saw a track layout of them and except for one or two features they are identical.

Basic spec check:

Armoured Snowmobile:
Length: 154"
Width: 101"
Height: 58"
Engine: Cadillac V8-cyl, 125 bhp.
Track width: 35", running on sixteen 4.50-16 Run Flat tyres

Muskeg Tractor - Model H. D. W.:
Length: 183"
Width: 87"
Height: 88"
Engine: Chrysler 6-cyl, 115 bhp. at 3,400 rpm.
Track width: 28"

Hmm, although it looks like Muskeg is indeed based on the Snomo design, it actually differs too much in lenght, width and track width to be the basis for a Snomo replica....or were there variations of the Muskeg, with one having basic dimensions very close to the Snomo?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

One wheel short of making a good basis for a Snowmobile replica, but it shows the stuff is out there, only an eBay-click away

"8x8 ARGO WEASEL AMPHIBIOS ATV GREAT SHAPE!!!"