Staghound Armoured Car details

[Steve Guthrie]

Hello there

Attached is a photo of a 12 Manitoba Dragoons Staghound driving past a King Tiger.

My question is, what is the function of those mesh-topped square boxes at the lower outer edge of the rear fenders.

Smoke dischargers?

Steve

[Kurtis Tsang]

Hi Steve,

I think, it might be modified air-intake for engine cooling. As you can see that the original air-intake was sealed by an additional armour plate. Those mesh-topped boxes were for anti-grenade.

Cheers,
Kurtis

[Nick Balmer]

Hello,

Having recently scratchbuilt a Staghound, I am aware that the rear air vent is under an overhang, and that short of lying down under the rear of the car with a grenade launcher, you could not drop a grenade in by gravity.

The photo is highly intersting because there is a metal "beam" of a triangular section right across the rear of the Staghound, that I have never seen before.

Together with the two mesh covered grilles, it looks purpose made. This is no RCEME lash up in the field.

Could the whole thing be the bottom of a deep wading kit?

Could there have originally have been two vertical trunking ducts going up from where the grilles are at present?

Then the anti grenade mesh makes more sense.

I have never seen a picture of the wading gear for a Staghound, but as they seem to have made wading gear for most vehicles, I suppose there must have been one made for a Staghound.

Has anybody got a Staghound Drivers Manual?

Regards

Nick Balmer

[marco]

Hello all,

The rear box and the beam across the rear are part from the 4ft deep water fording kit.
When fully installed, 2 stacks were mounted on top of the square flanges and these would extend above the waterlevel so the engine cooling air could flow out.
On the air inlet grill a similar stack was installed.

All 12th Manitoba Dragoon Staghounds were fitted with these kits in England in May1944.
This meant a couple of days work.
12MD had a dry landing on 8/9 July 44 in the St Croix sur Mer area and the vehicles were dewaterproofed the next two days.
The rear box stayed in place on many 12MD Stags as these were difficult to remove in the field (welded on the car).
Also, the box prevented dust being kicked up by the cooling air which normally expells downwards on the road.
The mesh guard is a field modification to prevent things
dropping in the box and becoming out of reach.

For Nick: Do you mean TM9-741?
I have that.
A digital version on CD can be found regularly on ebay (not my salesware).
There is evidence of a wartime Operators Manual but I never saw that.

Best regards,

Marco

[marco]

Page from Chilwell Catalogue 72/533, "4ft wading instructions for armoured car Staghound T17E1".

[marco]

12 Manitoba Dragoons, D-Squadron, Blankenberge Belgium.
Date September 9th, 1944.

[Nick Balmer]

Hello Marco,

Thank you very much for posting the Staghound wading kit diagram and history.

I had never before noticed the kit although I am familar with the original photo.

Commonwealth armoured cars have always been my favourite models to make, and I thought that I was fairly familiar with them, when something else pops up.

Regards

Nick Balmer

[marco]

Nick,

Here is another diagram from the fording kit instructions book.
I have rebuild a Staghound (T17E1) in 10 years time and have been collecting (wartime) documentation on this car also.
It is amazing how many publications there are on this car, originating from Chevrolet (Factory manual and "Product Notes") , the US Army (TM-series and Ord9) and the British army (Training Pamphlet and deep water fording instructions).
All are on T17E1 but I'm sure there must be information on T17E2 also.

I also have some British in/exterior stowage diagrams which might be interesting for you as a modeller.
If so, let me know on m.hogenkamp@hetnet.nl
I can sent you these.

Best regards,

Marco

[Steve Guthrie]

Hello Marco, Nick et al

Thanks so much for the information!

Now, another question. The side mounted gas tanks.

An RCD vet says they kept one of these in place on their cars as a long range tank. The drew fuel from it on the advance, so when they entered the combat zone, it was empty.

Did the 12 Manitobas do the same? I know both units added a metal mesh stowage basket in the position, as seen in your attached photo.

Steve

[Tony Smith]

These pics are from Jeff Plowman's book on the NZ 2nd Div Cav Regt in Italy, and are in turn from the Alexander Turnbull library collection.

[Tony Smith]

Index to above pic:

[Nick Balmer]

Hello Marco,

I am afraid that my wife's patience, and my pocket book would not stretch to restoring a full size Staghound, although it is something which I sure I would have enjoyed doing.

I have copies of several sets of drawings from the Tank Museum, and the stowage diagrams from Jeff Plowman's book. My model will be of a New Zealand one when it is finished.

Do you know the function of the small rectangular flaps coloured green in fig 18 that you posted?

One interesting "error" crept into the official war time drawinds that caused me looks of pain and anguish when trying to develop the plate drawings for my model.

The Tank Museum drawing B73601B produced in America on July 27, 1944 shows the rear plate which carries the exhaust pipe silencers as being square.

I got my first model well advanced, but when I tryed to fit the square rear plate, it became quite obvious that it would not fit.

My part finished model ended up in the box (a large one) of partly finished models, where I was stuck.

This really puzzled me, as the drawing looked so authentic, that I had assumed that it came from the original manufacturing plans. It was only when I saw a photograph in Plowman's book, of a Staghound from the rear that I suddenly realised months later that the plan was actually incorrect, both in the rear elevation and in the plan view.

A bit later I got the opportunity to measure up the Staghound in the reserve collection at the IWM at Duxford.

Now how am I going to convince my wife to let me have a Dingo Scout Car, my all time favourite armoured car?

Regards

Nick Balmer

[marco]

Hello all,

It would be bold to state that 12MD removed the extra fuel tanks from all their Staghounds, but in my collection of 100+ wartime photo's showing 12MD Staghounds in France/Belgium/Holland/Germany, none has the extra fuel tanks still in place.
I think, apart from Army regulations, there was also a "Regimental policy" dealing with vehicle issues.
12MD Regimental policy was that you were allowed to stow everything on the car as long as long as this didn't obstruct the turret rotation.

I have seen several photo's from RCD and Polish Staghounds on which at least one of these tanks was installed.

The danger from carrying these "bombs" on the frontline is obvious and some extra storage space was very welcome.
With the war in progress, 12MD Staghounds looked more and more like gipsy caravans from all the (neccessary) equipment the crews needed.
12MD operated in enemy territory without back up, so they had to be self-supporting.

Without the extra fuel tanks, a Stag carries about 230 liters of fuel which would give it a range of 150-200 miles on fair roads, which (according to 12MD veterans) very rarely gave problems.

Now on the green flaps in fig 18: the top two flaps, nearest to the air intake chute, are for refilling the radiators.
The centre two are for refilling the engine oil.
The lower one between the mufflers is for refilling the main fuel tank.
In order to refill the transmissions, the engine covers had to be opened.

Attached is a British stowage diagram showing a late-production Staghound.

Best regards,

Marco

[marco]

Hello all,

This time a question from my side:
Please look at the top view from this factory-issue Staghound.

Has anyone ever seen this canvas cover for the .30 cal machine gun on top of the turret?
The special thing about it is that it also covers the 250 round ammo box.

In 20 years I have only seen the cover for the gun+cradle, but never saw this type with the ammobox provision.
Would be most interested to purchase one for my Staghound.

Best regards,

Marco

[John McGillivray]

Here are three more Staghound pictures.

http://www.agencephotosmemorial.com/...65-IMG0099.jpg


http://www.agencephotosmemorial.com/...65-IMG0097.jpg


http://www.agencephotosmemorial.com/...65-IMG0095.jpg

[marco]

Hi John,

Thanks for these links, I didn't know about these photo's.

Interesting detail is the "heater box" created around the left muffler.
I suppose this was ment for heating food cans.

On photo IMG0095, two of the men are identified.
On the left Tpr Barlow and second from the left Tpr D. McDonald.
8th Troop, B-squadron 12th Manitoba Dragoons.

Marco

[marco]

Here is another photo.

12MD has turned in their Staghounds and Ford Lynx-II's late June 1945.

Could this photo have been taken at Deelen?

Marco

[Kurtis Tsang]

Hi,

Refer the 6th post by Marco, a photo of 12 Manitoba Dragoons, D-Squadron, Blankenberge Belgium. Date September 9th, 1944.

Does anyone know the type of .30 ammo boxes on the left rear fender ? Isn't it Canadian version ammo box ? Any more close-up photo ? Thanks in advance.

Kurtis

[Kurtis Tsang]

Hi,

Review Tony' post on above for New Zealand Staghound in Italy. The 37mm AT gun was replaced by a 3 inches howitzer and a reel of phone cable was weld on the front right of turret. I have the book "Kiwi Armour no.3" on hand but all photos are not clear.

Can anyone provide more info or close up photo for the 3 inches howiter(gun body) and cable reel ? Thanks in advance.

Kurtis

[Les Freathy]

Hi All

I thought these photos of a model i recently completed might interest some of you. its a 1/72 scale kit but infact almost scales to 1/76 so that suits me fine, The kit is issued by a Polish firm R P M and is the Staghound MK2 armoured car, the detail is incredable for akit this size and includes interior detal and the two GMC engines. There is currently 3 or 4 versions on the market so i would expect to see others following like the turret less and A.A versions
cheers
Les

[wim sikkelbein]

interior and exterior
toadman pictures

http://www.toadmanstankpictures.com/staghound.htm

wim

[Kurtis Tsang]

Hi Wim,

I also saw those pictures last night. The gun mount and gun sight could be clearly seen. Thanks God !

Cheers,
Kurtis

[Hanno Spoelstra]

More interesting detail. Caption provided by Marco Hogenkamp:

“These 2 Staghounds belong to 1-st Troop (A-squadron) XII Manitoba Dragoons. The car in front is the Lieutenants Car F116810. According to David Shiffman, the radio operator on this car, the “armor” was actually a piece of wood. The belief was that it would at least give some extra protection against the Panzerfaust. As far as I know this was the only Staghound having this “armor” installed.”

Location photo: Coevorden(holland) april 5 1945

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by marco

Page from Chilwell Catalogue 72/533, "4ft wading instructions for armoured car Staghound T17E1".

Here are some more scans found on http://www.12mbdragoons.com/stag04.html (likely to have been supplied by Marco).

"Chilwell Catalogue 72/533 titled “4-Ft wading instructions for the armoured car, Staghound, (T.17.E.1.)."