Ford Photos

[servicepub (RIP)]

An unnamed Directorate at DND threw out a bunch of papers. Amongst these were 400 pages detailing all of the Unit Serials of the Second World War Canadian Army and the relevent General Orders. I obtained these and made 20 sets of photocopies which I then hard-bound. Guess which Directorate at DND bought the first two copies!!!!

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by servicepub
......Guess which Directorate at DND bought the first two copies!!!!

If I spell DELTA HOTEL HOTEL .... and I'm right .... do you think they'll buy two copies of 'On Active Service' ....

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Steve Guthrie
......dumped hundreds of photos of Royal Canadian Naval Aviation topics into the trash to make space for something 'more worthwhile'....

.. during my years of service I saw the dumping of things of this nature happen more than once, it always rubbed me the wrong way for the simple fact that the idiots doing the dumping didn't have a clue what they were sending to the trash... needless to say, some things I did manage to rescue after the fact......

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
What these pictures proof to me is Ford Canada at least had a couple taken apart by the production engineering department

I agree with Hanno. Another photo in the LC series (LC29) shows a WD number (T136480), not likely to occur on a machine that is still under construction in Canada.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

As you all know I have some official GM photos,which I am going to have scanned 'professionally'. However I will certainly burn a disc with all the official Ford photos collected from around the world. I just hope that our mutual contact, Clive, will decide to carry on the supply.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Max Hedges
Keith, did you notice the gear box cross member in photos 26 and 27.
You sure could look at these pictures for hours, thanks for posting them Clive.

Too right you could look at these for hours! Thank you, thank you thank you, Clive. If these pics are to be added to others and put on to a CD, I'd gladly pay for a copy!

Now, Max, if we are going to get into the nitpicking game, what do you make of the 101"wb vehicle in pics AT042-049? Is this a F15A with a winch, or a FGT chassis with lightweight running gear? (SIT DOWN, DAVID!!) It looks like the vehicle in AT001 and 002. Note that there is no auxillary spring on the rear suspension, light "375" steering box, 4 7/8 steering ends. Note, too, the Prolific GM hardware such as the early cast diffs, Delco shock absorbers and the fabricated (not cast) suspension bump stops. What came first the F15A or FGT? Here are features of both in one vehicle!

And what of the vehicle in AT 062 and 063? Has no-one spotted that the brake vacuum cylinder is on the LEFT side of the chassis and written across the back of the cab in AT062 is the word "Experimental"? Could this be a LHD CMP?

[sapper740]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
And what of the vehicle in AT 062 and 063? Has no-one spotted that the brake vacuum cylinder is on the LEFT side of the chassis and written across the back of the cab in AT062 is the word "Experimental"? Could this be a LHD CMP?

This is a topic dear to my heart: LHD. My C15 is LHD and I would dearly love to know if it was a factory job or altered after the fact. I have variously been told that no CMPs were manufactured as LHD and that a few did indeed leave the factory LHD. What's the truth? If anybody has, or comes across definitive proof of LHD C15's leaving the factory, please contact me.



CHIMO!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Steve Guthrie
Is it possible that a release years ago of one of the Loyd photos Clive has rediscovered could have been the starting point for the original rumour?

Yes, that is a likely scenario.

Originally posted by sapper740
I think I have solved the riddle of where the rear fenders on my C15 came from. They appear identical to the fenders on the truck in jpeg #5. One more riddle solved!

They appear identical, but what is the chance fenders off the first production type body ended up on your truck?

Originally posted by sapper740
I have variously been told that no CMPs were manufactured as LHD and that a few did indeed leave the factory LHD.

That is correct, no CMPs were manufactured as LHD. Ford and Chevrolet both built other types of vehicles for homeland use which had LHD.

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Both Bart V and Fred Crismon had some real horror stories of entire rooms of archives of the type that we seek as the Holy Grail being dumped into the trash tips by many companies and governmental organizations over the years.

And what happened to their own archives? I fear more horror stories...

Let us do our utmost best to gather and distrubute whatever is left!

H.

[sapper740]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
They appear identical, but what is the chance fenders off the first production type body ended up on your truck?

Slim!

As we have seen, many post-war modifications have been done to CMP's by various entities, especially, it seems, those in Argentina. Juan Prien sent me a pic of his friend's CMP which appears to have several modidications to the cab, the most obvious of which is a perfectly vertical windscreen. Juan has said he would continue to attempt to pry some information for me from the Argentinian club but unfortunately thay do not appear to want to be helpful, or even approachable!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

What came first the F15A or FGT?

Says he sitting down!

I honestly cannot say and I have reviewed all the evidence that I can find.

I can definitively say:

1. 1939, but 1940 MODEL 15-cwt G/S Fords a la Gary Moonie
2. 1940 F15 a la Gregg book

then:

3.? I suggest that the GT was passed to GM of Canada [pilot used to tow gun cariiage a la Gregg book] and I believe a photo of # 1 C-GT appeared in such things as the GM of Canada song book but could the vehicle featured be the 'missing link' that I have been searching for, namely the F15A/F-GT prototype?

4. I think it is accepted now that the F-GT/C-GT was a three-ton truck. Therefore I conjected that it spawned the F30S/C60S as they were originally, and the F60S/C60S, followed by the extended-chassis F60L/C60L with the F8/C8 being based on the Ford commercial chassis.

On looking at photo # 1 I got an impression, probably wrong, that it was almost a bitza with GM parts, sent to Windsor for the cab to be added. In the beginning it was envisaged that GM through McKinnon Industries would supply axles, shockers, etc., and Ford cabs and chassis components.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Rolly Jerry wrote to me before he died and suggested that Bart's collection had been sold en masse to a private person. Is that correct?

[Brian Gough]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
I have more thoughts on this subject, but for the moment can someone tell Dummy Dugan here what is the GM "Bible" or "Black Book" and is any of it accessable or has it been published/posted somewhere.
Bill

Hi Bill,

References to the GM "Bible" or "Black Book" is to the "Album of Army Vehicles built by General Motors of Canada Ltd. for the Department of National Defence and the British War Office"

It was described in CMP #15 (OMVA magazine - June 1998) by Brian Asbury, then the editor, as:

"The album includes an index listing negative numbers, dates and a brief description. An analysis of one of the surviving copies (in a private collection) suggests that between February 1941 and June 1943 about one thousand photos were taken of which about 390 were chosen for the album."


Also see this earlier MLU thread:

http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...=&threadid=745


Brian

[Don Birnie]

Max,Tony. David.

I would like to throw out an idea into the discussion on which came first theF15A or the FGT.
As Tony stated poto's AT042 to At045 show light running gear and no auxillary spring in the rear.
My thought is that this chassis was going to be used in both the F15A and the FGT.
Let me explain. Untill Canada received the permision and the patents from England after Dunkirk in May 1940 to manufacture the 25pdr it was still using the 18pdr which I beleive was a lighter weight gun.
Once Canada started to train and use the 25pdr the light running gear and suspenion was found to be to light.
So the FGT's chassis was upgraded to the 3 ton suspension and running gear using the 101"frame leaving the lighter one to the F15A.
Just a thought.

Don

[Vic Eaton]

HELLO CLIVE
Many thanks for showing us all the pictures they seem to be changing to fast at the moment only see part of them dont know enough to know if they can be slowed down they were ok at first but now for some reason have speeded up .
regards vic . uk .

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by Vic Eaton
HELLO CLIVE
Many thanks for showing us all the pictures they seem to be changing to fast at the moment only see part of them dont know enough to know if they can be slowed down they were ok at first but now for some reason have speeded up .
regards vic . uk .

Vic
I just checked and they were clocking over at 10 seconds. Perhaps your systems internal clock is screwy?*

*screwy - regret use of highly technical terminology.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Don,

interesting point that I did not know about! I can tell you that DND records indicated:

Conveyor Line Saddle drawings on file for the 8-cwt and 15-cwt. 4 x 2 and the “Quad” chassis were dated 4 April 1940 and are marked inter alia, “type used final assembly Windsor”

So the F15 and F-GT were in production by early April. In May 100 reworked "Quad" floor plates were sent to England.

I should add here that there were major problems experienced with front axles on CMPs that took about three months of work by the RASC to rectify [1940]. This clicks with correspondence in July that I found now: Rzeppa design Universal joint and axle shafts as fitted by Ford to the front 4 x 4 Trucks were deemed interchangeable with the G.M.-used Bendix-Weiss, but Ottawa suggested that both right- and left-assemblies of the same type be fitted rather than mix-and-match!

I can certainly imagine from all this and other evidence that whereas the F-GT/C-GT were intended to be comparable to the F15A/C15A and that they were upgraded over here, there is a major difference between the two chassis: the GT and the C/F15A differed in that the former had the standard type transfer case, and the latter a totally different design. I am certain that the evidence points to the 15-cwt 4 x 4 being a later production entrant: known Chevrolet C15A sequential numbers start well after C30S and C60S for example had been in production, and there is no evidence that 15-cwt 4 x 4s were imported into England for some time after Southampton and Dagenham had started work, joined of course by Slough (December start).

Then again we have the F15 which may have been the starting point, based on commercial Ford chassis, and the possibly 'orphan' C15A with its helper springs and diffeerences from the F15...this gives me the impression that Oshawa 'did its own thing' here, with adaptation of a basic '40 Ford COE design: the 1939-40 Model Ford 1½-ton COE Model C011W basic design. Note that it had to be a Ford 101" chassis: GM only produced 107", and also Parts Book evidence suggests that Windsor produced chassis components for Oshawa pre-drilled for various applications. If you look through the pre-war DND papers as I have, as well as Clive and others, it is obvious that from 1938 Ford of Canada kept plugging their COE 1 1/2-ton chassis that was initially a Dearborn product, and it was the Ford men that led the design team!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I know that McKinnon Industries of St Catherines, Ontario produced cases from 1940, for GM and Ford. I have in recent times established that Ford had an axle plant in Windsor, and therefore they could have produced a version of the GM casing some time after McKinnons...McKinnons themselves almost certainly licensed their designs from Timken Axle Corp, Detroit. Ford could also by the same token have built the F15A/C15A cases to their own design avoiding licence payments etc.

[Keith Webb]

Our FGTs were built from Canadian chassis as were all our other CMPs with a couple of differences - cab 13 winch equiped CMPs other than the FGT and CGT had Australian fitted winches without the cable guards and with Australian (same as early Canadian pattern) front fairleads. The FGT and CGT No 8 and 9 had cable guards and the Canadian front fairleads.

Running gear in the FGT chassis was all 15CWT type; although they had 2-speed transfer case, brake booster, low speed diffs and 20" wheels, they had no helper springs and used 4 7/8" steering ends and small brakes as well as the light steering box, making it pretty much the same chassis as the Canadian cab 11 and 12 FGT. All the written material I've seen shows the cab 13 Beetleback FGT should have had 6" steering ends. Who can check the survivng ones for us?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Rolly Jerry wrote to me before he died and suggested that Bart's collection had been sold en masse to a private person. Is that correct?

Sold (or donated?) to a private person, correct. It is after this event the horror stories start...

H.

[Bill Murray]

Hanno and others:

Regarding private collections by well known authors, I am not a really good source, but.....

According to Margo VanderVeen, she sold Bart's collection to a Dutch fellow who had a museum called Marshall Museum at Overloon or something like that. Hanno is aware of this.

It seems that this Museum has been transferred to something called "The National War & Resistance.com" or something like that which seems to be at the same location.

The web site for the latest Museum does not indicate that they have Bart's archive in their collection.

If we are really on the search for the "Holy Grail", someone in Holland needs to follow up on where Bart's collection is now resident.

As regards a couple of other very prolific authors, I have read that Walter Spielberger, or his heirs, donated his entire collection to one of the major German archives. Perhaps BundesArkivKoblenz or some other one.

Of the other authors that I keep contact with, Fred Crismon is alive and well and has his entire collection intact. The same for Uwe Fiest/Feist.

Summary is that if we wish to make all of this materiel available to historians, modellers etc. we need to make a pretty major effort to either have the source holders make the stuff available on the net or donate unwanted materiel to historic organizations such as this one.

Bill

[servicepub (RIP)]

There are now (Feb 16, 20:45hrs EST) 591 images posted in the Ford Canada gallery. The new photos have been placed in their appropriate numerical position so you will have to start at the first image to find the new photos.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The F60H chassis-cab reminded me that I had a photo of a unique version. I am certain that is the same as the sole F60H trialled in England, and evidently bodied with a gantry body to compare with British lorries of the time. I wonder if it is the same vehicle, or can soemone better-sighted than me point out the differences?

The Mechanical Engineering Establishment at Farnborough, Hampshire, then tested a Ford F.60H loaned or seconded to the Ministry of Supply: reputedly serial CMD 4903, a Pilot Model, Engine/chassis number 1C3685F. M.E.E. Report No. B.571 dated 31 December 1940 referred to a trial of the truck between 15 August and 28 November 1940, under Ministry of Supply file 257/Veh/956 [Census Number H 4141706?]. The report stated that a Ford 6-wheeled chassis with driven front and middle axle and trailing rear axle as supplied to the ‘Canadian Military Department’ was received for test. The truck was trialled over 947 road and 201 cross-country miles, total 1,148 in order to ascertain its suitability for W.D. use. However, the test revealed that the steering was very stiff at slow speeds in either 6 x 2 and 6 x 4 drive; The front springs bottomed badly on rough roads; the driver’s seat was too low for an average man and it was impossible for him to see the road properly or gauge the width of the vehicle which made driving down narrow roads hazardous [raising the seat 3 inches made a considerable difference]; the windscreen wiper was useless when accelerating, and the exhaust tail pipe grounded. The truck was then to be subjected to further trials: 7,500 road and 2,500 cross-country miles. A copy of the report found itself in the hands of the D.N.D. in Ottawa and was referred to in the negotiations for the development of a 6 x 6 truck.

[cliff]

It has always amazed me that the rear body on these sits so high. Is it to clear something on the chassis or for some other reason?

Also looking at the F60H chassis photos I realised that from the rear of the cab back that the chassis was not only double skinned but that the exterior part of the chassis rail was also deeper then the inner. Was this true on all F60H's or are the photos of a pre-production model?

Also can anyone explain to me the differences between the Chevrolet early cast axles, as fitted to the early Ford CMP's, and the later, say #13 cab Chevrolet Axles?

Cheers
Cliff

[Les Freathy]

Hi Cliff
If you look at the underneath of the british built body on the CMP you will see the side section of a well at the rear end, this was common on all the gantry recovery bodies fitted with this typeincluding the Austin K6 and Dodge WK60 hence the need for high clearance. tha attatched photo of a K6 depicts the well unfortunatly it has the tailgate closed
Les

[cliff]

Thanks Les. Looking at the picture David posted I can see the well now that I know what to look for.

Cheers
Cliff

[Phil Waterman]

Originally posted by servicepub
For a very short time I will post about 200+ WWII Ford Canada photos on my web-site. This is a test pending something more permanent down the road if I can get Ford Canada to agree.
Please do not link to this site from other sites. This URL is being shared with MLU ONLY
Please do not copy these at this time. If you really must have a photo or two for your own reference and not for distribution I will e-mail it/them to you separately. I also have these in full size TIFF files but these images are 5MB files

Ford Canada Archival Photos

Clive- I have gotten a lot of enjoyment out of looking at these photos. I sincerely hope that you have access to the high resolution digital images for all of these so that they can be preserved.

I don’t know if you have heard the story that Bill Gregg told of similar photos in 8x10 format went out in trash at GM at one point. I believe they were rescued.

Do I see in the future a publication featuring these photos, I hope so.

[Bill Murray]

Ummm, guess I missed the update on the photos but the link seems to have gone away.
Sad
Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I have some GM photos and I can see them being scanned professionally and put on CD if there is a demand.