Falaise Gap: Losses and successes of the Canadian 4th Armoured Division

[Crewman]

Hello friends,

I am looking for all possible data on the subjest of RCASC companies that served in the Falaise Gap in aid of Canadian 4th Armoured Division. It seems to be hard to find info but maybe I am wrong and only am unable to look into right place for this information?

I do have various Canadian books on the Falaise Gap, 2nd Corps, 4th Armoured (including the memoirs of Maj.-Gen. George Kitching, GOC of the 4th Armoured) etc., etc., but there is lack of more detailed information about the logistics system of the Canadian 4th Armoured Division. It is only known that there were four RCASC companies serving respectively: one for 4th Armoured Brigade; one for 10th Infantry Brigade; two for four artillery regiments and the rest of division.

That is why I would like to ask you for help. Does anyone know the TOE of the RCASC company serving for the Canadian 4th Armoured Division? If you do not know this from the Falaise Gap period I would be also interested in typical structure and organization of the RCASC company in the Canadian Armoured Division, ETO 1944. What was the number of troops in one RCASC company in the 4th Armoured? How many trucks and other vehicles? Etc., etc.

If we find good and interesting answers I will write you why I asked for this information.

I would be very thankful for your help!

Best regards

Crewman

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
That is why I would like to ask you for help. Does anyone know the TOE of the RCASC company serving for the Canadian 4th Armoured Division? If you do not know this from the Falaise Gap period I would be also interested in typical structure and organization of the RCASC company in the Canadian Armoured Division, ETO 1944. What was the number of troops in one RCASC company in the 4th Armoured? How many trucks and other vehicles? Etc., etc.

Hello Crewman;

Rule-of-thumb: - by this period the RCASC operated on the 'Brick' system - each Platoon consisted of 30 trucks (the 30 trucks being the 'Brick'). The 30 trucks themselves could be either 3 Ton, 6 Ton or 10 Ton, but the 30 trucks of the Platoon would all be the same.
I'll post more on the RCASC Companies of the 4th Cdn Armd Div (1944) shortly, just have to dig out my notes.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
That is why I would like to ask you for help. Does anyone know the TOE of the RCASC company serving for the Canadian 4th Armoured Division? If you do not know this from the Falaise Gap period I would be also interested in typical structure and organization of the RCASC company in the Canadian Armoured Division, ETO 1944. What was the number of troops in one RCASC company in the 4th Armoured? How many trucks and other vehicles? Etc., etc.

Crewman;

This is based on research I did a couple of years ago, hope it helps:

Royal Canadian Army Service Corps - 4th Canadian Armoured Division - August 1944:

Headquarters Commander 4th Armoured Division, R.C.A.S.C.

No. 11 Company, R.C.A.S.C. (4th Cdn Armd Bde Coy) - with:
Company Headquarters

"A" Platoon
consisting of:
Pl HQ - 6x Car, 4x4, Light Recce; 1x 3 Ton, 4x4, Mobile Kitchen; 3x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x 5cwt, 4x4 (Jeep); 2x Motorcycle, Solo
1 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A1 to A6); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
2 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A7 to A12); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
3 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A13 to A18); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
4 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A19 to A24); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
5 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A25 to A30); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
Relief Driver Increment - 30x Spare Drivers
Relief Driver Increment - 30x Spare Drivers

"B" Platoon - SAME AS FOR "A" PLATOON - trucks numbered B1 to B30
"C" Platoon - SAME AS FOR "A" PLATOON - trucks numbered C1 to C30
"D" PLatoon - SAME AS FOR "A" PLATOON - trucks numbered D1 to D30

Composite Platoon
consisting of:
Pl HQ - 6x Car, 4x4, Light Recce; 1x 3 Ton, 4x4, Mobile Kitchen; 3x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x 5cwt, 4x4 (Jeep); 2x Motorcycle, Solo
1 Section - 6x 6 Ton, 6x6, GS or 6x 10 Ton, 6x6, GS;1x Motorcycle, Solo
2 Section - 6x 6 Ton, 6x6, GS or 6x 10 Ton, 6x6, GS;1x Motorcycle, Solo
3 Section - 6x 6 Ton, 6x6, GS or 6x 10 Ton, 6x6, GS;1x Motorcycle, Solo
4 Section - 6x 6 Ton, 6x6, GS or 6x 10 Ton, 6x6, GS;1x Motorcycle, Solo
5 Section - 6x 6 Ton, 6x6, GS or 6x 10 Ton, 6x6, GS;1x Motorcycle, Solo
Relief Driver Increment - 30x Spare Drivers
Relief Driver Increment - 30x Spare Drivers

Workshop Platoon
consisting of:
Pl HQ - 1x 3 Ton, 4x4, Office; 1x 15cwt, 4x4, Battery Charging; 1x 5cwt, 4x4 (Jeep)
1 Section - 1x 4 Ton, 6x6, Machinery "M" or 1x 4 Ton, 6x6, Machinery "M" MkII; 1x 3 Ton, 6x6, Stores; 1x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x 15cwt, 4x4, GS
2 Section - SAME AS FOR 1 SECTION

No. 12 Company, R.C.A.S.C. (10th Cdn Inf Bde Coy) - with:
Company Headquarters

"A" Platoon
consisting of:
Pl HQ - 6x Car, 4x4, Light Recce; 1x 3 Ton, 4x4, Mobile Kitchen; 3x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x 5cwt, 4x4 (Jeep); 2x Motorcycle, Solo
1 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A1 to A6); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
2 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A7 to A12); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
3 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A13 to A18); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
4 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A19 to A24); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
5 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A25 to A30); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
Relief Driver Increment - 30x Spare Drivers
Relief Driver Increment - 30x Spare Drivers

"B" Platoon - SAME AS FOR "A" PLATOON - trucks numbered B1 to B30

Composite Platoon
consisting of:
Pl HQ - 6x Car, 4x4, Light Recce; 1x 3 Ton, 4x4, Mobile Kitchen; 3x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x 5cwt, 4x4 (Jeep); 2x Motorcycle, Solo
1 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x Motorcycle, Solo
2 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x Motorcycle, Solo
3 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x Motorcycle, Solo
4 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x Motorcycle, Solo
5 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x Motorcycle, Solo
Relief Driver Increment - 30x Spare Drivers
Relief Driver Increment - 30x Spare Drivers

Workshop Platoon
consisting of:
Pl HQ - 1x 3 Ton, 4x4, Office; 1x 15cwt, 4x4, Battery Charging; 1x 5cwt, 4x4 (Jeep)
1 Section - 1x 4 Ton, 6x6, Machinery "M" or 1x 4 Ton, 6x6, Machinery "M" MkII; 1x 3 Ton, 6x6, Stores; 1x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x 15cwt, 4x4, GS
2 Section - SAME AS FOR 1 SECTION

No. 13 Company, R.C.A.S.C. (4th Cdn Armd Div Tps Coy) - with:
Company Headquarters

"A" Platoon
consisting of:
Pl HQ - 6x Car, 4x4, Light Recce; 1x 3 Ton, 4x4, Mobile Kitchen; 3x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x 5cwt, 4x4 (Jeep); 2x Motorcycle, Solo
1 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A1 to A6); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
2 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A7 to A12); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
3 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A13 to A18); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
4 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A19 to A24); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
5 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A25 to A30); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
Relief Driver Increment - 30x Spare Drivers
Relief Driver Increment - 30x Spare Drivers

"B" Platoon - SAME AS FOR "A" PLATOON - trucks numbered B1 to B30
"C" Platoon - SAME AS FOR "A" PLATOON - trucks numbered C1 to C30
"D" PLatoon - SAME AS FOR "A" PLATOON - trucks numbered D1 to D30

Composite Platoon
consisting of:
Pl HQ - 6x Car, 4x4, Light Recce; 1x 3 Ton, 4x4, Mobile Kitchen; 3x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x 5cwt, 4x4 (Jeep); 2x Motorcycle, Solo
1 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x Motorcycle, Solo
2 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x Motorcycle, Solo
3 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x Motorcycle, Solo
4 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x Motorcycle, Solo
5 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x Motorcycle, Solo
Relief Driver Increment - 30x Spare Drivers
Relief Driver Increment - 30x Spare Drivers

Workshop Platoon
consisting of:
Pl HQ - 1x 3 Ton, 4x4, Office; 1x 15cwt, 4x4, Battery Charging; 1x 5cwt, 4x4 (Jeep)
1 Section - 1x 4 Ton, 6x6, Machinery "M" or 1x 4 Ton, 6x6, Machinery "M" MkII; 1x 3 Ton, 6x6, Stores; 1x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x 15cwt, 4x4, GS
2 Section - SAME AS FOR 1 SECTION

No. ? Company, R.C.A.S.C. (4th Cdn Armd Div Tpt Coy) - with:
Company Headquarters

"A" Platoon
consisting of:
Pl HQ - 6x Car, 4x4, Light Recce; 1x 3 Ton, 4x4, Mobile Kitchen; 3x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x 5cwt, 4x4 (Jeep); 2x Motorcycle, Solo
1 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A1 to A6); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
2 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A7 to A12); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
3 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A13 to A18); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
4 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A19 to A24); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
5 Section - 6x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS (A25 to A30); 1x Motorcycle, Solo
Relief Driver Increment - 30x Spare Drivers
Relief Driver Increment - 30x Spare Drivers

"B" Platoon - SAME AS FOR "A" PLATOON - trucks numbered B1 to B30
"C" Platoon - SAME AS FOR "A" PLATOON - trucks numbered C1 to C30

Composite Platoon
consisting of:
Pl HQ - 6x Car, 4x4, Light Recce; 1x 3 Ton, 4x4, Mobile Kitchen; 3x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x 5cwt, 4x4 (Jeep); 2x Motorcycle, Solo
1 Section - 6x 6 Ton, 6x6, GS or 6x 10 Ton, 6x6, GS;1x Motorcycle, Solo
2 Section - 6x 6 Ton, 6x6, GS or 6x 10 Ton, 6x6, GS;1x Motorcycle, Solo
3 Section - 6x 6 Ton, 6x6, GS or 6x 10 Ton, 6x6, GS;1x Motorcycle, Solo
4 Section - 6x 6 Ton, 6x6, GS or 6x 10 Ton, 6x6, GS;1x Motorcycle, Solo
5 Section - 6x 6 Ton, 6x6, GS or 6x 10 Ton, 6x6, GS;1x Motorcycle, Solo
Relief Driver Increment - 30x Spare Drivers
Relief Driver Increment - 30x Spare Drivers

Workshop Platoon
consisting of:
Pl HQ - 1x 3 Ton, 4x4, Office; 1x 15cwt, 4x4, Battery Charging; 1x 5cwt, 4x4 (Jeep)
1 Section - 1x 4 Ton, 6x6, Machinery "M" or 1x 4 Ton, 6x6, Machinery "M" MkII; 1x 3 Ton, 6x6, Stores; 1x 3 Ton, 4x4, GS; 1x 15cwt, 4x4, GS
2 Section - SAME AS FOR 1 SECTION

Cheers

[Phil Waterman]

Strange that you should ask this question today, my wife is a librarian and I was just doing a web search for her on what maps are available. The West Point map library came up which shows the position of Allied and Axis


War Maps in History
http://www.dean.usma.edu/history/web...map%20home.htm
The U.S. Military Academy at West Point offers a collection of historic maps illustrating battles in many wars. Click on 'atlases'. http://www.dean.usma.edu/history/web...map%20home.htm
http://www.dean.usma.edu/history/web...ar%20index.htm

[Crewman]

Dear Mark,

Wow, excellent, thank you very much, I am really very thankful.

Why did I need this TOE? I have to compare logistics systems of two partner divisions from the Falaise Gap – the Polish 1st Armoured and the Canadian 4th Armoured. I will have detailed documents about the Polish division quartermaster system next week but in the meantime would not you like to look at the figures of the Polish companies that were to be theoretically the counterparts of the RCASC companies in the Canadian 4th?

It can be seen that the first difference between two divisions is the number of logistics companies – Polish division has only three such companies despite the fact that it was organized according to Canadian 1st Army regulations.

If I remember correctly I have read somewhere that when it comes to number of troops RASC/RCASC company was similar to classic Commonwealth’s armies infantry company, i.e. it was approx. 120-130 men. The Polish quartermaster "company" seems to be closer to battalion force. What do you think about it?


Polish 1 Armoured Division logistics structure:


1st Armoured Division HQ Quartermaster Company
441 men
18 officers


3rd Quartermaster Company
370 men
14 officers


10th Quartermaster Company
531 men
16 officers



One more time thank you very much for your time and help

Best regards

C.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
Wow, excellent, thank you very much, I am really very thankful.

Cheers

[Crewman]

Mark,

Below there is the Austin K5 that belonged to Infantry Transportation Company of the 1st Polish Armoured Div. Were the K5s narrowly specialized to carry the troops or is it only coincidence that this type of truck was used in Polish Infantry Brigade?

Thank you in advance for possible reply

Best regards

C.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Crewman
Below there is the Austin K5 that belonged to Infantry Transportation Company of the 1st Polish Armoured Div.

Crewman, that's not an Austin K5, but a Bedford QL. Used to carry troops or supplies.

Hope this helps,
Hanno

[Crewman]

Hmm,... lorries are not my strongest point, to put it mildly :

Thank you Hanno

Best regards

C.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Crewman
Hmm,... lorries are not my strongest point, to put it mildly :

Never mind, that´s what we´re here for. Keep feeding us tose Polish TOE´s and I´ll be a happy man!

H.

[Crewman]

Hi guys,

The thread maybe mainly for the Canadian colleagues but maybe I am wrong…

Is there in Canada any credible statistics that shows the losses and successes of the Canadian 4th Armoured Division in the Falaise Gap? In view of the Falaise Gap chaos I can imagine how hard task would be preparing detailed day-by-day statistics, mainly in its successes section, also how hard would be to separate the figures of the German tanks destroyed in the moments when the elements of the Canadian and Polish armoured regiments fought together. But maybe somebody tried to do it in Canada?

Or maybe somebody tried to count common successes of both the Canadian 4th and Polish 1st Armoured Divisions because many times they fought as one armoured group? Is there known in Canada how many German tanks and other AFVs were destroyed by these two Allied divisions? As I wrote in my other posts I know various Canadian books on the Falaise Gap, the memoirs and/or biographies of the Canadian GOCs related to the Falaise Gap but no answers over there.

The Polish data on the same subject and their credibility leave a lot to be desired. This is one of the reasons I am asking you.


Any help would be appreciated

Best regards

C.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Gregory;

I don't know if this will help or not, but as of 20 August:

4th Canadian Armoured Brigade:
21st Armd Regt (GGFG)
22nd Armd Regt (CGG)
28th Armd Regt (BCR)

had 72 tanks 'Fit for Battle' (Medium & Light gun tanks)

2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade:
6th Armd Regt (1H)
10th Armd Regt (FGH)
27th Armd Regt (Sher Fus)

had 92 tanks 'Fit for Battle' (Medium & Light gun tanks)

No number available for 29th Armd Recce Regt (SAR)

Also, regarding German losses:

In the 'Gap' area, lying between: Pierrefitte/Argentan/Chambois/Vimoutiers/Trun, investigators found 187 tanks and self-propelled guns, 157 lightly armoured vehicles - the heaviest concentration being found south and south west of St. Lambert

In the 'Pocket' area, lying between: Falaise/Conde-sur-Noireau/Vassy/Tinchebray/Barenton/Domfront/La Ferte-Mace/Argentan - 90 tanks and 31 self-propelled guns

Cheers

[Crewman]

Dear Mark,

As always -- thank you very much, I am very grateful.

My first impression -- the figures look very good. In my opinion they are not so high, I would say they are rather small, so they look very realistic and credible. I am afraid that I know much more fantastic figures taken out of the air and coming from various quasi-scientific researches done by the troops or post-war veterans. Simple example of the August 8th–10th period -- the Germans decorated themselves by various Iron Crosses, Oak Leaves etc. for destroying in that period 90 Polish tanks whereas – according to Maj.-Gen. Stanislaw Maczek – the Polish Division lost 60 tanks then. But frankly speaking Polish veterans are not much better

There are numerous interesting factors in your post. Before I show Polish estimation for the 1st Polish Armoured Div. to compare it and to try to discuss about it I have additional questions:

1. Who from Canada investigated the problem we are discussing about? Were they civilian historians? Or was it the Historical Section of the Canadian 1st Army? Or for instance personally Col. Charles P. Stacey? I am asking because, as you certainly know, he verified in France by personal inspection various Falaise Gap-related facts even in 1946.

2. From both American and Polish points of view it may be interesting the deadline of this estimation, August 20th, whereas Chambois were finally captured and closed by the US 90th ID and Polish 1st Armoured on August 21st at about 1400. Is there any reason known why the Canadians stopped their battle successes counting so early, a day before closing the Gap?

3. The SAR -- yes, I am also surprised that even Donald E. Graves did not get the figures in his excellent "South Albertas" monograph. Is there known why? Was it too hard to estimate it due to dispersing the regiment through wide area, permanent changing the situation or other factors? Graves showed detailed TOE in his SAR monograph but mentioned nothing about the numbers of particular tanks and other AFVs in the regiment during the Falaise Gap operations.

4. Do I understand correctly that in view of the regions mentioned in your post (Pierrefitte/Argentan/Chambois/Vimoutiers/Trun plus Falaise/Conde-sur-Noireau/Vassy/Tinchebray/Barenton/Domfront/La Ferte-Mace/Argentan) the figures are total value for the following divisions or groups?:
▪ Canadian 2nd Infantry Division
▪ Canadian 3rd Infantry Division
▪ Canadian 4th Armoured Division
▪ French 2nd Armoured Division
▪ British 11th Armoured Division
▪ British 53rd Infantry Division "Wessex"
▪ British 59th Infantry Division
▪ Polish 1st Armoured Division
▪ US Task Force Weaver (10 various units from the US 90th Infantry Division)

So, do I understand correctly that the figures from your post are team success of all these Allied divisions?

5. What about Coudehard -- the place of Polish fierce battles against SS troops? This is not the same as the Mace Hills 262. Did anybody count the German tanks/vehicles wrecks over there?


Mark, one more time thank you very much for your time, efforts and excellent information!

Best regards

C.

[Crewman]

Hi,

And who was responsible for the new tanks deliveries to the frontline armoured Squadrons and Regiments?

Maj.-Gen. George Kitching did not write it in his memoirs ("Mud and Green Fields") but he mentioned an interesting fact in his interview for Professor Reginald H. Roy. Kitching told that in the Falaise Gap there was a moment when his 4th Armoured Division had… only 46 serviceable tanks. Less than one armoured regiment!

How it was possible? Was the RCASC responsible for deliveries of the spare tanks or the other Canadian Army Service?


Best regards

C.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
How it was possible? Was the RCASC responsible for deliveries of the spare tanks or the other Canadian Army Service?

Hi Gregory;

In the case of the 4th Canadian Armoured Division, they drew their tanks (and other AFVs) from "D" Squadron, 25th Armoured Delivery Regiment (The Elgin Regiment), Canadian Armoured Corps

Tank Delivery, First Canadian Army in Normandy:

- under First Canadian Army (Army Troops):
"F" Squadron, 25th Armoured Delivery Regiment (The Elgin Regiment), Canadian Armoured Corps

- under II Canadian Corps (Corps Troops):
"E" Squadron, 25th Armoured Delivery Regiment (The Elgin Regiment), Canadian Armoured Corps

- supporting 2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade:
"C" Squadron, 25th Armoured Delivery Regiment (The Elgin Regiment), Canadian Armoured Corps

Hope this answers your question.

Cheers

[Crewman]

Dear Mark,


Re: Tank delivery.

Thank you very much for this info. Polish sources tell nothing about the tank delivery system for the Polish 1st Armoured Division but according to your information it had to be The Elgin Regiment as well, am I right?


Re: Battle successes.

According to Polish estimation published in 1971 by Col. Franciszek Skibiñski (Falaise Gap Polish veteran and post-war historian) the Polish 1st Armoured Division destroyed between August 8th and 21st the following figures of the German weapon systems and equipment:
▪ 55 tanks
▪ 44 field and self-propelled guns
▪ 207 cars of various size and types

I do not present other Polish estimations, much greater, because as I wrote earlier they are taken out of the air. I am not sure if these figures are not too high as well because we do have only 277 German tanks (187+90) to divide them between eight divisions and Task Force Weaver. If we take aside the "Polish contribution" of 55 tanks then there are 222 German tanks to divide them between seven divisions and Task Force Weaver. It means average value of approx. 28 destroyed German tanks per one Allied unit. Impossible. The Polish estimation I quoted seems to be too high due to two factors: the Polish 1st Div. did not take part in the Operation Totalize phase I and moreover Polish infantry belonging to the 1st Div. destroyed not one tank because they did not use the PIATs. If the Poles destroyed 25-30 tanks it must be all. What do you think?


Thanks for very interesting discuss!

Best regards

C.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman


Re: Tank delivery.

Thank you very much for this info. Polish sources tell nothing about the tank delivery system for the Polish 1st Armoured Division

Hi Gregory;

In various Orders of Battle for 1st Polish Armoured Division (1944-45), and on various Arm of Service (AoS) marking charts, there is shown (under Divisional Troops) the following Polish unit:

1st Tank Replacement Squadron

Markings:

AoS: serial '473' (in white) on a background of Green over Blue
Formation Sign used: 1st Polish Armd Div

Originally posted by Crewman
but according to your information it had to be The Elgin Regiment as well, am I right?

"F" Sqn (1st Cdn Army Troops - Armd Del Sqn) and "E" Sqn (2nd Cdn Corps Troops - Armd Del Sqn), may have been involved with the replacement of tank (and AFVs) for the division at various times.

Cheers

[Crewman]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
In various Orders of Battle for 1st Polish Armoured Division (1944-45), and on various Arm of Service (AoS) marking charts, there is shown (under Divisional Troops) the following Polish unit:

1st Tank Replacement Squadron

Markings:

AoS: serial '473' (in white) on a background of Green over Blue
Formation Sign used: 1st Polish Armd Div

Ha!

I know of course AoS 473 but in the Polish sources it has unclear status. It does not have the status of a Squadron and what is more 1st Tank Replacement Squadron. In Polish literature this unit is called generally as "Divisional Replenishment Center".

Thanks Mark!

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Gregory;

Thought this may be of interest to you -

Tank (AFV) delivery Normandy (Jun-Aug) 1944:

within 21st Army Group:

2nd Armoured Replacement Group, R.A.C. - consisting of:

2nd Armoured Delivery Regiment, R.A.C. - for Second British Army
25th Armoured Delivery Regiment (The Elgin Regiment), C.A.C. - for First Canadian Army

**************************************************
under Second British Army:

No. 256 Delivery Squadron, R.A.C. - 2nd Army Troops

for I, VIII, XII and XXX British Corps:

No. 254 Delivery Squadron, R..A.C. - ? Corps Troops
No. 257 Delivery Squadron, R..A.C. - ? Corps Troops
No. 258 Delivery Squadron, R..A.C. - ? Corps Troops
No. 259 Delivery Squadron, R..A.C. - ? Corps Troops

for British Armoured Divisions:

No. 268 Forward Delivery Squadron, R.A.C. - 6th Guards Armoured Division
No. 263 Forward Delivery Squadron, R.A.C. - 7th Armoured Division
No. 270 Forward Delivery Squadron, R.A.C. - 11th Armoured Division
No. 264 Forward Delivery Squadron, R.A.C. - 79th Armoured Division
No. 269 Forward Delivery Squadron, R.A.C. - 79th Armoured Division

for British 4th, 8th, 33rd Armoured Brigades
and for British 6th Guards Tank, 31st Army Tank, 34th Army Tank Brigades:

No. 261 Forward Delivery Squadron, R.A.C.
No. 262 Forward Delivery Squadron, R.A.C.
No. 265 Forward Delivery Squadron, R.A.C.
No. 266 Forward Delivery Squadron, R.A.C.
No. 267 Forward Delivery Squadron, R.A.C.
No. 271 Forward Delivery Squadron, R.A.C.

**************************************************
under First Canadian Army:

"F" Squadron, 25th Armoured Delivery Regiment (The Elgin Regiment), C.A.C. - 1st Cdn Army Troops

for II Canadian Corps:

"E" Squadron, 25th Armoured Delivery Regiment (The Elgin Regiment), C.A.C. - 2nd Cdn Corps Troops

for 4th Canadian Armoured Division:

"D" Squadron, 25th Armoured Delivery Regiment (The Elgin Regiment), C.A.C.

for 2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade:

"C" Squadron, 25th Armoured Delivery Regiment (The Elgin Regiment), C.A.C.

**************************************************
Allied Formations:

for 1st Polish Armoured Division:

1st Tank Replacement Squadron

for Czech Armoured Brigade:

? unknown ?
**************************************************

Cheers

[Crewman]

Mark,

Thank you very much for very useful data. There are tens of various interesting points in the Canadian-Polish relations in the Falaise Gap, including various tensions and conflicts, but I do not want to be tedious. I am burning to discuss about Hill 140 affair but maybe in the days/weeks to come...

One more time thank you very much!

C.

[Crewman]

Mark,

I would like to make sure as to one thing. Could you check please in your Canadian sources how the follownig Polish 1st Armoured Division AoS is described:

black-white AoS No. 44

One of the Polish books describes it as the 1st Forward Tank Delivery Squadron but the other book informs that 1st Division's AoS 44 means Field Post.

The same goes for the Aos 473. According to Polish books it is either 1st Forward Tank Delivery Squadron or Divisional Replenishment Center. Nobody researched it firmly half a century long and this is the revenge of history against us. Help Canada, help

Thanks in advance and best regards!

C.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
Mark,

I would like to make sure as to one thing. Could you check please in your Canadian sources how the follownig Polish 1st Armoured Division AoS is described:

black-white AoS No. 44

One of the Polish books describes it as the 1st Forward Tank Delivery Squadron but the other book informs that 1st Division's AoS 44 means Field Post.

I have AoS serial '44' (for 1st Polish Armd Div) in white on black - as Field Post Unit (which would be the Divisional 'Postal' (ie' 'MAIL') unit

Originally posted by Crewman
The same goes for the Aos 473. According to Polish books it is either 1st Forward Tank Delivery Squadron or Divisional Replenishment Center. Nobody researched it firmly half a century long and this is the revenge of history against us. Help Canada, help

on all AoS listings/charts I have, AoS serial '473' (for 1st Polish Armd Div) is shown as 1st Tank Replacement Squadron.

Gregory, both the above answers are for 1st Polish Armd Div, within 21st Army Group, for 1944-1945.

Cheers

[Crewman]

Nothing more than

[Crewman]

Mark,

Have you ever seen an info how many RCASC troops belonging to the Canadian 4th Armoured Division were KIA, WIA and MIA in the Falaise Pocket and Gap?

Best reagrds

C.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
Mark,

Have you ever seen an info how many RCASC troops belonging to the Canadian 4th Armoured Division were KIA, WIA and MIA in the Falaise Pocket and Gap?

Best reagrds

C.

Hi Gregory;

No, I can't say that I have. I'll see what I can find.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
Mark,

Have you ever seen an info how many RCASC troops belonging to the Canadian 4th Armoured Division were KIA, WIA and MIA in the Falaise Pocket and Gap?

Best reagrds

C.

Hi Gregory;

Haven't found any reference on the casualties suffered by the R.C.A.S.C. of 4th Cdn Armd Div during the Falaise and Falaise Gap battles, but I did come across this, which is in regards to a question you had asked earlier concerning re-supply by air of the Polish Armd Bde during the Falaise Gap battles. The source is the book "WAIT FOR THE WAGGON, The Story of the Royal Canadian Army Service Corps", by Arnold Warren, published in 1961.

This is the passage from pages 304-305:

"During Operation 'Tractable', the Armoured Brigade of the 1st Polish Armoured Division advanced so deeply into enemy territory that it was cut off by enemy forces retreating to the east, and ran out of petrol. Attempts to deliver POL, Supplies and Ammunition to them in armoured vehicles failed and had to be abandoned in favour of the one remaining method, supply by air.

Late in the afternoon of August 20, the 2nd Canadian Corps made arrangements through 1st Canadian Army who, in turn, worked through 21 Army Group to set the wheels in motion back in England, and the Polish Armoured Brigade was requested by radio to establish a Dropping Zone and mark it with flares. Before the next dawn, planes carrying the commodities were arriving over the Dropping Zone and jettisoning their cargos. Owing to the many fires burning in the surrounding country, some of the containers were not aimed at the right area, but enough reached the Poles to enable them to continue fighting until the Armoured Brigade of the 4th Canadian Armoured Division could reach them."

Cheers

[Crewman]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
"During Operation 'Tractable', the Armoured Brigade of the 1st Polish Armoured Division advanced so deeply into enemy territory that it was cut off by enemy forces retreating to the east, and ran out of petrol. Attempts to deliver POL, Supplies and Ammunition to them in armoured vehicles failed and had to be abandoned in favour of the one remaining method, supply by air."

Mark,

Thank you very much!

This is very objective and honest text because sometimes it is suggested in the West that requiring the air drops by the Poles encircled on the Hills 262 "Mace" was a kind of the airs.

Best regards

C.