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#1
14-02-06, 09:24
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Morris-Commercial C8/GT at Arnhem
Hello All,
I have for several years tried to get information about the Morris-Commercial C8/GT used during the Arnhem campaign. A lot of information has been collected but much off it are contradictory and it’s hard to know what is right or wrong... Questions have been asked in several forum and but this is the first time here. Now I hope someone have facts about the Morris-Commercial C8/GT and can add me more information... However, all information and/or debate in the subject are appreciated...I have never seen a more “anonymous” vehicle then this one… ...and, please don’t hesitate to contact me with all kinds of information in the subject of the C8/GT and what it did in Arnhem…all information are appreciated... Best Regards, Stefan - "Morris-Commercial" is the manufacturer... - "C" gives type of chassis... o Comment: ...what were the characteristics for this chasse..?? - "8" gives the wheelbase of the chassis, 99 in. o Comment: ..."9" is 117 in. or more... - "GT" stand for "Gun Tractor"... o Comment: ..or should it be AT for “Artillery Tractor”..?? - There was no "new built" C8/GT then they was all rebuild from the C8/P Predictor and the C8/AT Portee... o Comment: …???? - All information about the C8/GT says it has 10.5x16 in. tyres on 6.5x16 in. rims... o Comment: ...this is the major question…10.5x20 in. tyres on 6.5x20 rims can be seen on pictures too... - Some information about the C8/P Predictor and the C8/AT Portee says that the Mk.II version of the chassis had 10.5x20 in. tyres on 6.5x20 rims... o Comment: ...then all C8/GT was, as stated above, rebuilt from C8/P and the C8/AT (on Mk.III chassis) there must be some C8/AT with 10.5x20 in. tyres on 6.5x20 rims..?? -On the C8/AT represented in Arnhem had they a “full hood (bonnet)” or was it “cut” on the left side..?? o Comment: ..I have seen pictures of both models stated as C8/GT… - Some pictures on the net show a C8/GT being loaded into a glider. It has a wooden body with a Pegasus painting. All other pictures show sheet metal bodies. o Comment: ...was there a mix of bodies made of wood or sheet metal..?? ...mean this pictures that the C8/GT always got the bodies removed during loading..?? - Which type of C8/GT was used in Arnhem..?? 
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#2
14-02-06, 10:52
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Thread!
I have had a go at this in the past I am still not fully informed!
http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ight=predictor I believe that the correct designation is C.8/AT, and the rebuilds were made by Morris Commercial Cars Ltd at Adderley Park, Birmingham at the end of 1943. Some former /MG and the later Portees ended up as 17-pounder tractors, and some were converted to airportable version. I cannot imagine that any C.8/P Predictors were converted to the 'normal' 17-pounder tractors but it is possible! I assumed perhaps incorrectly that all were converted to airportable versions. The differences in the original models pre-conversion were considerable, with the front and rear mudguard design most obvious: round or flat-sided. Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 14-02-06 at 10:59.
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#3
14-02-06, 13:19
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Thanks David...
Hello David,
Thank for you answer but I hope thee will be more. The link to the treed you sent me I know about then it was given me on recommendation in another forum… This subject seams hard to be fully informed about. I mention the size of tires in the beginning and there I should want to have an answer. Could it be like this; the Mk II chassis has the larger tires and the Mk III hade the smaller..?? Both this chassis seams to be used to build the C.8/AT… I will read the treed you sent me a little better and may I come back to you with more direct questions illustrated with pictures and drawings?? Bets Regards, Stefan
__________________
Stefan Odenhammer Sweden mail@steo.se
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#4
14-02-06, 13:44
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Drawings
I once had drawings of the C.8/MG and /AT Portee rebuilds but have no idea where it might be now. Does Bart Vanderveen's military vehilces book mention tyre and wheel sizes?
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#5
14-02-06, 13:48
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Rebuilds
The C.8/MG Mobile Gun portees and the /AT portees had diffferent seating arrangements and cabs from the C.8 anti-tank 2-pounder/25-pounder tractors.
There is much more information on the airportable rebuilds at the Parachute Regiment Museum in Aldershot, Hampshire, England. There are some superb photos there!
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#6
14-02-06, 14:24
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I seem to remember reading recently that two 17 Pounders were deployed during the Arnhem landings, both of which were written off when their gliders crashed.
Presumably their tractors went the same way?
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#7
14-02-06, 16:47
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morris commercial C8/AT mk3
Hello everybody,
According to the book "Tugs and gliders to arnhem" by arie-jan van hees there were 11 morris commercial C8/AT mk3 trucks deployed in the arnhem area. This is 11 out of 16 17pounder/truck combinations originaly planned to take part in the battle. Neill is right in that two combinations in their hamilcar glider crashlanded on the landingzones of the oosterbeek area. According to the book the trucks were identical to the anti-aircraft 40mm bofors version exept for the following modifications: canvas roof and roof supports were omitted sheet metal sides, doors, tailboard and toolboxes were removed The truck carried with it into battle 15 boxes of ammunition and a 8 men crew with kind regards, Wim Sikkelbein
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#8
15-02-06, 14:11
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Re: Thanks David...
Quote:
Quote:
H.
__________________
Regards, Hanno --------------------------
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#9
15-02-06, 15:51
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I'll include some photo's from the book I mentioned
source : tugs and gliders to arnhem and one from the rear
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#10
16-02-06, 13:34
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And here we go again. The information in the quoted book is incorrect and based on sources that do not have a clue either.
The two pictures are from a Morris-Commercial FAT that has been cut down for this experiment, as shown by the census number for a mk. III FAT. The 1943 rebuilt Portees did not do well at Arnhem, or with any of the inafntry divisional anti tank units: enormously underpowered for the heavy gun, as can be read in the after report on RA performance at Arnhem. I have a uncut C8-AT which should be back on the road again one day, and which started her life in january 1941 as a gun portee. I have had her at Arnhem for some years for the annual pilgrimage and at these events have teamed up with some members of 2 A/L A/T battery Oban. Reg. Arnhem ther are one or two pictures known: one is from a film still showing clearly the spec of the C8 and there is a 1945 taken pictures of the remains of one. One day I will do a little write up on these Morris's
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#11
16-02-06, 23:36
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Quote:
Quote:
H.
__________________
Regards, Hanno --------------------------
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#12
17-02-06, 05:55
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Thank you all...
Hello All ,
What to say..?? I have got more information about the C.8/AT in less of a week then I have for several years…even of I found some of your comments are contradictory (sorry! No hard feelings please) but still, thank you very much for taking the time and write your comments…it’s much appreciated… David Hayward; thanks to your comments I found, what I believe it is, the homepage to the Parachute Regiment Museum in Aldershot http://www.flying-museum.org.uk/home.htm. I have contacted them but haven’t got any answer yet… Wim Sikkelbein; thanks for your tip-off about the book "Tugs and gliders to Arnhem" by Arie-Jan van Hees. I don’t know how many books I have about “Market-Garden” but I have never heard about this one before and I have already ordering it. The pictures from the book you included are one of those things that make me puzzled. The vehicle has the rounded fenders but it has its load of boxes for the 17-ponder anti-tank gun as far as I can see it and there are 15 of them mentioned by you but where should the 8 men crew be sitting..?? Hanno Spoelstra; thanks for your comments and the picture you added. This one have I never seen before but the other one mentioned I have. The picture here shows some nice details but is the fender rounded or flat and was the bonnet the one that was cut on its left side..?? Rob van Meel; your comment about the pictures from the book "Tugs and gliders to Arnhem" make sense. It seams to be some kind of an experiment version. It’s very exiting to read about you own C8-AT and I must admit that I’m able to do whatever it takes to get more pictures on it. From all angles, with all details and including pictures of the chassis… Dear Rob, is it possible for you to contact me then it should be very appreciated...  Once again, thanks all for the information so far… Best Regards, Stefan
__________________
Stefan Odenhammer Sweden mail@steo.se
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#13
17-02-06, 11:09
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Airborne Forces Museum
Try Alan Brown:
airborneforcesmuseum@army.mod.uk.net http://www.army.mod.uk/para/af%5Fmuseum/ Quote:
Best wishes! But, and this is a salutary lesson. This e-mail has been edited: Quote:
Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 17-02-06 at 11:33.
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#14
17-02-06, 11:28
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2
Quote:
Included in the Museum collection are detais of a F15A experimental cut-down airportable I seem to remember. Aldershot is about 40 miles away, say one hour, so I could be tempted to go and see Alan again if he is still there.
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#15
17-02-06, 15:58
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how about this one
Here's a picture from "For King and Country: British airborne uniforms,insignia and equipment in WW II"
stated as beeing an early picture of polish airborne troops and their tractor towing a 75mm howitzer. On close inspection one will count 8 men in the truck The big question is: what kind of truck is this, the one we are looking for or something else?
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#16
17-02-06, 16:07
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Hmm
We have seen that photo posted before. I just checked WHEELS & TRACKS # 30..I query whether it's a C.8/P Predictor rebuild rather than C.8/AT Mk III say. Note the three-man cab, and also the flat-section wings/fenders.
Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 25-11-10 at 23:12.
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#17
18-02-06, 13:54
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crew positions
Hello Stefan,
To answer your question i'll add a quote from "The gunners at arnhem" The 17 pounder, being longer and heavier, was carried in the lager hamilcar glider together with its towing vehicle, a specially adapted Morris Commercial which carried the gun detachment and the ammunition consisting of twenty armour piercing and ten sabot rounds per gun. Each troop commander and one member of each gun team dropped by parachute with the infantry unit to which they were attached so that they would arrive at their RV before the guns were unloaded from the gliders. Maybe Rob van Meel can tell us more about the positions of the soldiers on the truck?
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#18
22-11-10, 22:23
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Quote:
Last Saturday the Friends of the Airborne Museum organised a lecture on the 1st and 2nd Airlanding Anti-Tank Battery RA by Mr. Eugene Wijnhoud (MBE). Very interesting stuff, here's hoping his research will appear in print. And personally I think we should take better care of the remaining original guns! H.
__________________
Regards, Hanno --------------------------
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#20
21-05-21, 22:50
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Here are some pictures of Rob van Meel’s C8/AT by Bert Lindeboom. Ginkel Heath, ca. 1990s
__________________
Regards, Hanno --------------------------
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#21
09-09-21, 14:09
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stefan's e-mail addres
Is Stefan still on the internet and with us on Maple leaf up as his e-mail address does not seem to work?
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#22
10-09-21, 09:56
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Quote:
__________________
Regards, Hanno --------------------------
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#23
10-09-21, 17:48
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There is still a Morris chassis under a sort of Shepherds hut caravan on camping the Rijnoever in Oosterbeek.
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#24
10-09-21, 19:46
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Quote:
__________________
Regards, Hanno --------------------------
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#25
10-09-21, 23:14
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Who knows ?
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