Techie question ... (Jeep)

[Mike Cecil]

Gents,

I'm consulting the brains trust, please ...

Willys MB:

New master cylinder installed about 2 years ago (about 1,000 miles ago). Everything working fine. The cheap no-name brand brake switch started needing more and more foot pedal to make the brake light work, so this morning I:
(1) removed the switch
(2) inserted a name brand switch
(3) bled the brakes.
(4) went for a short drive.

Problem: brake light remained on after the first push of the pedal. Checked the electrical circuit and the brake switch was live across the two terminals even when the brake was not depressed.

Solution: replace the new switch with another new switch from stock. The first switch removed, once out of the vehicle, was no longer live across the terminals once, so the problem was not the switch.

Problem: New replacement switch is like the first one: the brake lamp stays on after first application, but now turns off again by itself after about 45 seconds to 1 minute.

Anyone have any thoughts about what I'm doing wrong? Brakes are working fine and are not remaining on once the pedal is no longer depressed. I bled the brakes using a pressure bleeder, which leaves the master cylinder very full: is that the problem?


Mike

[rob love]

Do you have some amount of freeplay on the pedal? If you push the pedal with your fingers, there shoudl be a half inch or so before the pushrod actually contacts the piston.
As to overfilling, there is normally a vent on top of the master cylinder, so it should not be retaining any pressure in the reservoir, unless you have blocked off the vent. Without the vent, the heating of the cylinder from the nearby exhaust pipe can result in reservoir pressure and dragging brakes.

[Mike K]

Some master cylinders have a check valve located down at the output end of the cylinder , the end where the brass union for the pipes is located. The theory of the valve being there: it is to provide a small amount of permanent pressure in the hydraulic system. In your case, the little amount of permanent pressure might be enough to turn the brake light switch on.

[Harry Moon]

Those switches have been the bain of my existence, (Not really just adding some drama). New ones from the parts store fail altogether in short order either not working or on all the time. So i found an old one, cleaned it up and it's working better than the new ones and has been on and working for about 3 years now. Others in the club say the new made ones are all crap and have the same issues.

[Mike Cecil]

Gents,

Thanks - a couple of things for me to check. I'll do that tomorrow, and let you know the results.

Mike

[Lynn Eades]

Mike C., If it is not a bunch of faulty switches, and you have toe board clearance, then there is another long shot. It might be that your m/cyl has the wrong spring. The residual line pressure valve holds around 1.5 psi. It is a one way valve that lets fluid pass through the ports in the valve when the brake is applied. On release of the pedal, pressure in the lines lifts the whole valve from the rubber seal in the end of the bore, against spring pressure, until the pressure drops and the valve lands back on the rubber seal, back into a state of equalibrium. If the spring is from a different set up, it might level out at a higher pressure. This is admitedly a long shot.
Btw. the residual pressure is important. It holds the cup lips against the bores and prevents weeping and it holds fluid in the lines to enable a quicker response/ better pedal.
I believe your issue to be one of the first two things.

[Richard Farrant]

Hi Mike,
I recall this used to happen a lot with Ferret scout cars. They had an extension tube on the top of the master cylinder, for convenience of filling, but if filled to the top of the tube they will activate the pressure switch, usually after a drive, suspect that heat of brakes cause the fluid to expand a little. Also filler cap had a vent in it and can get paint or dirt blocking the holes.

regards, Richard

[Mike Cecil]

Thanks for the replies.

Remember this was a new m/cylinder that was working fine since installation circa 2 years ago and before I replaced the switch, refilled and bled the system, so I doubt it has the wrong spring.

I've checked the brake pedal freeplay, lowered the fluid level in the cylinder, checked the tightness of the end bolt and changed the pressure switch yet again. No change. Press the pedal, and upon release, the brake lamp 'blips' off as the pedal recovers, but then remains on for a minute or so.

Can't think of what to do next. B****y annoying...

Mike

[Mike K]

Strange.

Each time you remove the switch: Is there any indication of the fluid squirting out the hole under slight pressure ?

Maybe you can get somebody to press the brake pedal slightly with the switch removed just to get an idea of what is going on at the switch port/hole. With the pedal fully up, there should not be enough fluid pressure to activate the switch,

Another idea , remove the switch and test the switch on the bench with a battery and two wires , poke something down the hole while the battery is connected and see how sensitive the on/off mechanism is. It's probably a rubber diaphram or similar ?

[rob love]

I am thinking you are meaning to say a battery, two wires and a lightbulb. Two wires from a battery will just short out if you make the switch engage, likely burning out the switch.



If you have an air regulator with gauge, you can set it up onto the switch, and start increasing the air pressure until the light comes on. Removing the pressure should have the switch come off immediately. If it does, then your problem is the hydraulic system. Perhaps the residual pressure in the master is enough to engage the switch, or borderline to release the switch. There are identical switches that take higher pressure to engage. I had a quick look on NAPA which shows 4 similar switches for the Jeep. Two of them are listed as being for 60 to 120 pressure to close the contacts. I have seen other switches with much lower pressures listed but I'll have to check some of the NSN's at work tomorrow to confirm. If the residual pressure in your system was actually at 60 psi, I think that would have the brakes dragging.

You could also put a gauge onto the brake switch port and see what the pressure actually is after brake application, and how fast it returns to minimum. Any chance of a piece of something blocking the return port in the master cylinder? Luckily, if the switches prove to be OK, master cylinders are quite cheap in the US, usually around $40.

[Mike Cecil]

I have a circuit tester for that, and have tested the sensitivity of the switch. Seems to take a reasonable pressure to activate, and is crisp in its on-off operation.

Rob, you mentioned the return port in the M/cylinder, and I was thinking along those lines: crud in the m/cylinder well, partially blocking a port. Looks like I'm at the stage of removing the m/cylinder, giving it a good clean and reassemble. What a pain! Might pull a quick one and do a change over from the new spares box, then pull the old one apart to see what's what.

They are great when they are working fine, but ...

Thanks again, Gents, for your very helpful comments.

Mike

[rob love]

Yeah, for $40, how long do you want to spend figuring it all out. For about $60 you can replace both the master and the switch and be done with it.
One other point is what type of brake fluid are you using. I did note that some of the switches specifically mention they are not for use with silicone brake fluid. If the silicone causes the diaghragm within the switch to swell up and stick, that could also be your problem.

[Mike Cecil]

Rob,

Good points ... thanks.

Mike

[Lang]

Then of course you could get rid of the pressure switch and for a few dollars and very little work put in a foolproof spring loaded switch on the brake pedal.

[Mike Cecil]

That's true, Lang, but then, where's the challenge in that?? As my better half has often said: how hard can it be??

Tomorrow, it's m/cylinder change over time. The day after: that might be spring-loaded switch time!!

Mike

[Mike Cecil]

Despite being as careful as I could in re-filling the master cylinder, I must have knocked a minute amount of crap from under the vehicle into the open m/cylinder.

Today, I changed over the master cylinder, bled the brakes and bingo! everything works fine.

On flushing the removed m/cylinder with de-natured alchohol into a clean wash tray, I noticed some very small amounts of crap floating about. I suspect it was that which was being sucked into the holes in the bottom of the m/cylinder, partially blocking one or both, hence the time taken for the pressure to reduce and the switch to go off.

Lesson learned! Be more than careful when scrabbling around under the vehicle through the master cylinder access hole with the top off the m/cylinder!!

Thanks for the help, Gents: all contributions to the discussion greatly appreciated.

Mike