Elliott's Yard, Ontario in 1993

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

1977 or 78. Even back then I was fixated on Otters and Fox.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Aerial photo of the yard in 1979. I can make out the shadows of what are Paul Visser and my Foxes. You can see the Harvard above the white roofed building. Into the tree line it was very swampy and there were cars in there dating to the very early 1900's.

[peter simundson]

.....was a Yale.

Peter Simundson

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by peter simundson

.....was a Yale.

Peter Simundson

Yes, now that I think about it it did have boots...so a Yale.

Do you know what became of it, or the carrier in front to it? Boy, those were exciting days when all this stuff was still out there to be discovered.

[David Dunlop]

Bill Gregg had a complete but unrestored Yale at one time. IIRC it was built to a French contract but diverted to Canada after France fell.

Could this be the one that ended up at Bill’s place?

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

1977 or 78. Even back then I was fixated on Otters and Fox.

The Fox is the one which was sold to Dirk Leegwater and then to Paul Visser, right?

What does "THIN ROOF HULL" and the triangle on the hull front denote? Is it a hull made from mild steel?

And where did the Otter end up?

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

The Fox is the one which was sold to Dirk Leegwater and then to Paul Visser, right?

What does "THIN ROOF HULL" and the triangle on the hull front denote? Is it a hull made from mild steel?

And where did the Otter end up?

The Fox in the photo is the one the Elliott's kept for their museum and went to the US. It has two front axles and, because they left the interior 'as-is', it was a wealth of information for my restoration. Paul's Fox was at the lower left, mine in the middle and the museum one on the right. One Otter was in the museum, the other went to a father/son team north of Montreal where it got a coat of post war gloss green paint and disappeared. I tried to look up the owners a few years ago without luck (there is an MLU post on this with pics).

The Fox in the yard were odd, and I think factory seconds. They were marked with welded on triangles and this one with THIN ROOF HULL (now ground off). All had early features (square gauges, no fire suppression, early turret crank) yet were at the end of the production run according to their manufacture dates.

Here are the locations of the Otters and Fox back then and the packing slip that came with them. My Fox is the top one, the Otter and Fox marked 'ours' went to the USA, Paul's is the third line and the other Otter is MIA.

[Les Fisher]

I bought this GMC Fox armoured car from Elliotts. Now completely resorted and owned by Bruce Parker ! Also I brokered the sale of what I believe was a Farley Mowat bring back Sd. Kfz.7 semitrack . It was sent to the Budge collection and some point part of the Littlefield Collection and now I believe it fully restored and in Massachusetts USA . Perhaps picture to follow.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Video screen shots of my Fox recovery from the Elliot's yard in 1988, courtesy of Les Fisher. First, where it sat since 1960 when it had its engine, transmission, rad, running gear, turret rings, etc. removed and sold to Levy Brothers in Toronto. The hulk was left behind, which is probably what saved it. That is one of the Elliots working the torch. Second, the turret 'over there' on the back of a 13 cab CMP. Third is the hull being moved by the same boom truck seen overtop of the Otter in my last set of pics some 10 years later. Four is loading it up on the flatbed.

Last pic is 'THIN ROOF HULL" moved from beside the Otter and ready for its move into the Elliot's museum. A life and death story on that next up.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Some 20 years after I took this photo that gap almost killed me. By then the Elliott's had gotten THIN ROOF HULL running and inside. I visited often photographing and measuring up parts. On one particular visit I needed information inside the engine compartment. I was in the museum alone and the Fox was backed up against the nose of some 1930's car with a large winged chrome hood ornament. I climbed up on the very back centre top of the Fox and lifted the engine cover. I was young and could do things like that.

But remember the gap.

As soon as I got the engine cover up I realized there were no hinges holding it in place and I was in trouble. The bottom began sliding on the thin metal rails at the top of the hull engine opening and it was going to keep sliding until it hit me in the ankles and pushed me down on that chrome hood ornament, then fall on me completely to finish the job. The more I tried to hold the top up the faster the bottom came at me, and the bottom was too far forward for me to kick and return the whole mess to horizontal. With that strength you often hear about where mothers lift cars off their pinned children I was finally able to inch the cover back and drop it in place. Denied killing me however, it wasn't finished yet. As soon as it clanked back down it started sliding backwards where of course it would drop right on that perfectly restored 1930's car crushing it. I was in no danger but the car sure was. About one third of the way on its evil trip I was able to knock it enough crooked that it wedged and stoped sliding. Carefully moving it up close to where it started I thanked the Elliotts for their hospitality and got the heck out of there.

[Brian Gough]

From post #16, Les, if it is the same vehicle, it sure went a long way from its former resting place in the Elliot Brothers yard in Newtonville.

from the R M / Sotheby website https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/lc14 about the July 2014 sale of the Jacques Littlefield Collection:

" Celebrated as one of the world's largest private collections of armored vehicles, the Littlefield Collection represented more than 30 years of careful and dedicated acquisition by the late Jacques Littlefield, founder of California's Military Vehicle Technology Foundation. Following Mr. Littlefield's passing, the collection was acquired by The Collings Foundation, who will integrate some 80 of Littlefield's prized vehicles and artifacts into its own existing collection of military vehicles and aircraft. This enlarged collection will be housed in a new 66,000-square foot facility, befitting Littlefield's vision, at the Collings Foundation headquarters in Stow, Massachusetts. The remainder of the collection – more than 200 lots of parts and accessories, and 122 military vehicles – was presented at last weekend's sale.

Highest levels of interest were received for the most recognizable and iconic vehicles of World War II. Claiming top sales honors was a German SD.KFZ.7 (KM M11) 8-Ton Half-Track Personnel Carrier which sold for $1,207,500 to applause from the audience. Used to tow medium artillery in World War II, the Half-Track included bench seating for up to 11 gun crew and special compartments in the vehicle's rear to carry ammunition. "


Brian

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Brian Gough

From post #16, Les, if it is the same vehicle, it sure went a long way from its former resting place in the Elliot Brothers yard in Newtonville.

from the R M / Sotheby website https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/lc14

Does anybody know where this half track was restored? It sure came a long way from a wreck deemed unrestorable to it's current condition.

With picture and full description for future reference:

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/l...-km-m11/574492


8-ton Half-Track Sd.Kfz. 7 (KM m11)
Sold For $1,207,500
Inclusive of applicable buyer's fee.
RM | Auctions - THE LITTLEFIELD COLLECTION 11 - 12 JULY 2014

9d7a84ae98cdee083fbf88abd328cae0dee28708.jpg 8-ton Half-Track Sd.Kfz. 7 (KM m11).jpg

Weight: 12.7-tons (11,550-kg)
Length: 22' 5” (6.85-m)
Width: 7' 7” (2.40-m)
Height: 8' 6” (2.62-m)
Crew: 1 + 11 passengers
Armor: None
Weapons: None
Engine: 6-cylinder Maybach HL62 TUK, 140-hp
Power/weight: 11-hp/ton
Fuel Capacity: 56-USG (213-l)
Range: 155-miles (250-km)
Speed: 31-mph (50-km/h)

The vehicle being offered, 8-ton Half-track Sd.Kfz. 7, is a quite rare vehicle. It was thoroughly restored in the late 1990s or early 2000s and arrived at the MVTF sometime between 2004 and 2006. It is in immaculate shape. It appeared on the cover of the December 2003 issue of Military Machines International magazine and was shown in two other photos in the same issue as it was being put through its paces at the 2003 Duxford show. Based on the stamping on the front towing pintle, this vehicle was built in 1942. The paint is in excellent condition. The tires, roadwheels and tracks are in like new condition. All exterior lights are present. The rear winch is provided with a cable. The engine compartment is clean and appears to be complete. All driver’s instruments appear to be complete. The actuator lever for the radiator louvers functions normally. The troop seats are in excellent condition. Troop straps are provided for each row of seats. Wooden tilts for the foul weather cover are mounted are appear to work normally. The windscreen glass is in excellent condition. Rifle racks are mounted with each row of seats.

Design work on the Sd.Kfz. 7 half-track, or more formally, Sd.Kfz. 7 mittlerer Zugkraftwagen 8t, began in 1934. It was built to fulfill a Wehrmacht requirement for an 8-ton half-track prime mover. Trials vehicles were produced between 1934 and 1938. The type was officially accepted into service in 1938 with production starting at that time. By the time production ended in 1944, 12,187 had been built by three manufacturers: Krauss-Maffei, Borgward and Sauserwerke. A further 250 were built under license in Italy by Breda.

The Sd.Kfz. 7 was used to tow medium artillery such as the 15-cm sFH 18, 10-cm schwere Kanone 18 and the 8.8-cm Flak gun series. Bench seating was provided for up to 11 gun-crew members while compartments in the rear of the vehicle could be used to carry ammunition. The Sd.Kfz. 7 had a towing capacity of 17,600-lbs (8,000-kg) so it could handle most medium artillery in the Wehrmacht inventory. The suspension consisted of two undriven front wheels and a tracked rear with seven sets of roadwheels per side. The drive-sprocket was located at the front of the track system. A powered winch was located at the rear of the vehicle near the towing pintle.

Several variants of the Sd.Kfz. 7 were produced during the war, including the late war variant with a wooden truck-type cab and load-bed and a few anti-aircraft versions. The Sd.Kfz. 7/1 carried a 2-cm Flakvierling 38 while the Sd.Kfz. 7/2 mounted a 3.7-cm Flak 36. Both versions were built in armored and unarmored variants.

The Sd.Kfz. 7 saw service with the Wehrmacht throughout World War II. There were never enough to go around, so most of them ended up with German mechanized units, thus forcing most of the German Army to rely on horses for the duration of the war. Post-war, they were used by the Czechoslovakian Army for several years until replaced by Soviet or domestically produced equipment.

Transport Cost to Storage: $1,452

[peter simundson]

....... on the torch. And behind him is one of the Stuart Tank hulls that I GAVE them. I went back and got the GPMG mount from the turret. Eventually they were both sold for a great sum (for the time) of money. Don Smith had dragged three of them from the creek behind Levy's. He took them to his location at Downsview Air Base. One had all the hatches and the turret ring AND some interior parts. After a year he got heat from the base to get rid of them. So he sold one hull and turret to a scrap metal guy. When the guy picked it up he took the wrong one, Gone was the one with all the parts. Elliott's got the other two.

Peter S

[Les Fisher]

Yes Brian I believe you are correct

[Bob Phillips]

Las I remember an old German halftrack that was smashed and bashed but I did not think it was nearly as big as the chassis at Elliots, the Littlefield machine was quite large. You don't have any photos of the Elliot old chassis do you?

The Yale must have originated in Tilsonburg at the Ernie Simmons sale. I thought Bill Gregg had 2 Yale's but I could be wrong. His Yale (or yales) went to Hamilton and was restored to flying condition.will post some pics if I can find them.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

The Fox in the photo is the one the Elliott's kept for their museum and went to the US. It has two front axles and, because they left the interior 'as-is', it was a wealth of information for my restoration. Paul's Fox was at the lower left, mine in the middle and the museum one on the right. One Otter was in the museum, the other went to a father/son team north of Montreal where it got a coat of post war gloss green paint and disappeared. I tried to look up the owners a few years ago without luck (there is an MLU post on this with pics).

The Fox in the yard were odd, and I think factory seconds. They were marked with welded on triangles and this one with THIN ROOF HULL (now ground off). All had early features (square gauges, no fire suppression, early turret crank) yet were at the end of the production run according to their manufacture dates.

Here are the locations of the Otters and Fox back then and the packing slip that came with them. My Fox is the top one, the Otter and Fox marked 'ours' went to the USA, Paul's is the third line and the other Otter is MIA.

Thanks Bruce,

I did not realise there were multiple Foxes in your photos.

I think the Foxes with welded on triangles and thin roof hull were not factory seconds, they were likely pilot models. As with other armoured vehicles, pilots were constructed of mild steel and would be used for component testing and ironing out the last manufacturing details before committing to full scale production using armour plate. The early features are an indicator of them being pilot models.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Thanks Bruce,

I did not realise there were multiple Foxes in your photos.

I think the Foxes with welded on triangles and thin roof hull were not factory seconds, they were likely pilot models. As with other armoured vehicles, pilots were constructed of mild steel and would be used for component testing and ironing out the last manufacturing details before committing to full scale production using armour plate. The early features are an indicator of them being pilot models.

Hanno, all my stills are of 'THIN ROOF HULL". The video captures are the Fox that eventually became mine, as is the old photo of the hull that Les Fisher posted. For some reason I didn't take any photos of the one Paul has, though I crawled over it many times.

I would agree with you the welded on markings are prototype or pilot, but I can confirm mine at least is made of hard drill bit breaking armour (it had the triangles). My Fox was built in October 1943 at the end of production which makes me wonder how that can be. Is it possible pilots sat at the GM plant and were given data plates at the end so they could be sent to the army? It's a safe bet most of the Fox left in Canada were for training so hard armour, fire suppression, etc. were not that important, though the vehicles would be well marked to indicate that.

[Ed Storey]

This photograph of a Sd.Kfz. 7 photographed on parliament hill was e-mailed to me.

Sd.Kfz. 7.jpg

As well, I was also sent this image as a comparison which shows how the RCMP have transitioned from using surplus wartime German halftracks to more modern patrol cars for guarding parliament hill.

RCMP Cruiser.jpg

[Ed Storey]

Does anyone know where these two vehicles came from and subsequently ended up?

Fox and Otter [1].jpg

Fox and Otter [2].jpg

[Alex van de Wetering]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

Hanno, all my stills are of 'THIN ROOF HULL". The video captures are the Fox that eventually became mine, as is the old photo of the hull that Les Fisher posted. For some reason I didn't take any photos of the one Paul has, though I crawled over it many times.

What about Dirk and Stefans Fox, didn't it come from Elliots as well?

By the way....your Fox looks awesome and I really like the paint colour match.

Alex

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

What about Dirk and Stefans Fox, didn't it come from Elliots as well?

Dirk's first Fox came from Elliots indeed, it was later sold on to Paul Visser after Dirk found a better Fox in Belgium.

Paul had to spend a lot of time searching for the missing parts.