Ede, Holland 1945

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Attached is a picture from WW2talk, courtesy of James Nightingale jnr.

"Bill Wyatts tank brewing up at Arnhem"

source: http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads...y.13221/page-2

Judging from the bracket on the turret side this looks a lot like the same Crab as in Jon's picture. It's 1st Lothian and Border Yeomanry.

A cross posting to WW2Talk yielded more pictures of the Sherman Crab and the Panther tank!

It seems these were taken at a later date. The Sherman's turret seems to have been righted by then. Note the soldier sticking his head up from the RH sponson. The top plate seems to be peeled up and away by an internal explosion.

No further info on "Bill Wyatts tank brewing up at Arnhem" as of yet.

Crab M4 L1 (2).jpg Crab M4 L1 (1).jpg

Panther yu.jpg Panther yu. b.jpg

[Alex van de Wetering]

A cross posting to WW2Talk yielded more pictures of the Sherman Crab and the Panther tank!

Wow, awesome. A big thanks to James for sharing these pictures!

[MicS]

On this tank, as often on burnt out / heavily weathered tanks, paint shades seem inverted, i.e. what were white outlines (of the turret number and tank name) have become darker than the body of the outlined digit/letter.

I read the first digit of the turret number as a 9, with the characteristic shape of 1 LOTHIANS turret numbers:
No.9x.jpg

This means that the tank originally belonged to 4 Tp C Sqn, which initially comprised Crabs Nos. 90 to 94:

90? RED GAUNTLET
91? GREEN MANTIE
94 WANDERING WILLIE
92 ALAN FAIRFORD
93? COLIN CAMPBELL

The Ede Crab cannot be RED GAUNTLET, which was written off on 8 Aug 44, nor either ALAN FAIRFORD or COLIN CAMPBELL which had different stowage arrangements.

I also see a 'D' plus shades of letters compatible with No.94 WANDERING WILLIE:
Tk name.jpg

No.94 Crab 'WANDERING WILLIE' 4 Tp C Sqn 1 LOTHIANS, 7 Aug 44, Athis Farm, Op TOTALIZE - Concord.jpg

Maybe the 1945 War Diary for C Sqn could provide details on the loss of WANDERING WILLIE?

Finally, the T-number cannot be T148187 which was a Sherman V of 22 Cdn Armd Regt:
T-12727 - 0628 - '' A '' VEHICLES PREPARATORY CHART.jpg
I believe it is T148167, or possibly T148197.

Jon, could you scan this photo once more, at least the part with markings, in high resolution (600 or 1200 dpi), maybe tweaking the constrast to improve legibility of those markings?

Michel

[David Herbert]

Yes, I can easily believe T148167. However remember that all the Crabs were originally standard Sherman V gun tanks and retained the same 'T' number after conversion to Crabs so could appear in lists as either type depending on dates.

David

[MicS]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

Yes, I can easily believe T148167. However remember that all the Crabs were originally standard Sherman V gun tanks and retained the same 'T' number after conversion to Crabs so could appear in lists as either type depending on dates.

Quite true. I forgot to specify that the 22 CAR list dates from the same period (April-May 44) as the 1 LOTHIANS list of vehicle names, corresponding to the initial tanks (those with a turret number). So No.9x, whatever its name, is unlikely to have been a former 22 CAR tank.

[Jon McGrath]

Originally Posted by MicS

Jon, could you scan this photo once more, at least the part with markings, in high resolution (600 or 1200 dpi), maybe tweaking the constrast to improve legibility of those markings?

Michel

Yes, I will do my best to get a better scan in the next 2~3 days. Jon

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Michel,

Good to get your input on this! Clearly it helps when you know what to look for to be able to ID additional clues.

Originally Posted by MicS

I read the first digit of the turret number as a 9, with the characteristic shape of 1 LOTHIANS turret numbers:

This means that the tank originally belonged to 4 Tp C Sqn, which initially comprised Crabs Nos. 90 to 94:
(...)
Finally, the T-number cannot be T148187 which was a Sherman V of 22 Cdn Armd Regt:
I believe it is T148167, or possibly T148197.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by MicS

Maybe the 1945 War Diary for C Sqn could provide details on the loss of WANDERING WILLIE?

Have you seen the analysis by "Tolbooth" over on WW2Talk?

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads...-8#post-912505:

I think this may be the incident. The Lothians A Squadron WD has this entry for the 17th Apr

"[A] Sqn, with C Sqn 141 RAC, assisted SWB and Gloucesters, Bennekon - Renkum. The birds had flown. Sgt Leishman's tk blown up on a mine and burnt out - four cas to personnel."

And this comes from the after action report of Lt Byth, 1 Tp A Sqn

" Tue 17 Apr 45. The Tp was to operate as a sort of roving column, clearing up villages on the left of the main area of advance, together with three Crocodiles and nine carriers. This force was called GUY FORCE. Progress was painfully slow because of numerous road blocks and ruins, but the task was successfully completed without any enemy opposition.

We reunited with the main body at Oosterbeck and pushed on, now leading on the main axis. Still the only opposition was ruins and road blocks. Finally we encountered a minefield, which had to be flogged. Sgt Leishman's tk blew up on two R-mines, with cas to his crew: Tpr Wyatt severely burnt; Tpr Deryck wounded in foot (later died of wounds); LCpl Roberts burns on hand; Tpr Chisholm sprained knee."

There don't appear to have been any other casualties around that period.

And http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads...-8#post-912508:

However....!

There is another tank knocked out on the 19th April nearby in the village of Eldik which is also west of Arnhem. this was from 1 Trp B Sqn, which was my dad's unit.

"Col Richardson of 1 Calgary Regt came over and requested assistance on behalf of one of his tps and a coy of Belgians, who were going to make a small local attack from the village of Eldikschenhock MR525707 [Today seems to be called Eldik]. The job was simply this: That the Belgians were afraid of Schumines in an area which was known to have A Tk mines in it, and requested our assistance to clear a path so that the Calgary's tks could get forward to sp them.

Capt E C Harley, Lt T R Stewart and Col Richardson went forward and made a recce, and later Lt Stewart went out with three Crabs to do the job. One tk, Cpl Edwards', was unfortunately blown up on an R mine and the following cas were incurred: Tpr Cardle J, head injuries and burns (died of wounds later); Tpr Smith C D, bruises and slight shock; Tpr Dempster A, burns and cuts to left arm.


Lt Stewart and Capt E C Harley, who were there, decided that 1Tp could do nothing further and the remaining tks came back and rejoined the Sqn in harbour. The tk itself was a Z cas (for a full account of this see Lt Stewart's report ).


Later in the afternoon Maj J D Henderson, Capt E C Harley and Sgt Gregory P all had a look at the tk and decided it was too big a job for the ARV, and assistance would be required from the Calgary Regt to get the Crab off the road.

No Schumines had been blown and the Belgian sappers then cleared the remaining R mines by hand."

Lt Stewart's action report has this too;

"On 20 Apr 45 we towed the damaged tk clear of the road junction and removed all the kit from it, as it was impossible to bring it back owing to the difficulty of getting it up onto the high dyke road."

It does sound as though this particular tank was not recoverable and may be the one that ended up at Ede, although the one on the 16th is closer.

[randall klein]

Long time member but first time posting in a longer time. I have a photo of the memorial to the 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade at Ede but I have no idea how to post. If someone could steer me in the right direction. Thank you

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Randall,

See http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...600#post190600 for posting pictures, give it a try. If it does not work, email me and I’ll post it here.