CFR Request Thread

[rob love]

If you go back in this thread to page 6, the 6 trws that showed on the EDR viewer are listed there: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...&postcount=170


Or to save you from getting lost, I'll cut and paste the info here:

CFR List

As of 09-NOV-10

Formation : -

Unit : -

Disposal Status : ALL

Year Number HUIC Holding Unit ERN ERN Description
1956 93492 0145 CFB LAHR 30901 MOTORCYCLES ALL TRIUMPH B2
1957 93873 0122 CFB CHILLIWACK 30901 MOTORCYCLES ALL TRIUMPH B2
1957 93874 0122 CFB CHILLIWACK 30901 MOTORCYCLES ALL TRIUMPH B2
1957 93906 0145 CFB LAHR 30901 MOTORCYCLES ALL TRIUMPH B2
1957 93908 0114 CFB/ASU Kingston 30901 MOTORCYCLES ALL TRIUMPH B2
1957 93912 0114 CFB/ASU Kingston 30901 MOTORCYCLES ALL TRIUMPH B2

[charlie fitton]

Thanks Rob, I was hoping to find a correlation between cfr and ser no.... a hint of a pattern, anyway.

Does make one wonder how many of these were actually ordered. When I first started going to the supply depot in London (1973 or so) , there were 99 (I counted) still in the crates ...

[David Dunlop]

Back in the late 1960’s, when the main entrance to Kapyong Barracks in Winnipeg was on Kenaston Blvd, just off the corner of Grant Avenue, there used to be 2 of these Triumphs parked on a regular basis beside the long red brick MP Building on the right side of the entrance heading into the complex.

I seem to recall another as part of the FHG Museum collection at MacGregor Armoury more recently. Not sure if it is still there, or if it came out of Winnipeg held equipment originally.

David

[Josh Mordarski]

Hi Ed! Got another request from a gentleman on FB for a trailer he recently purchased.

M101 CDN 2, Serial 1909.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Ed Storey]

Serial 1909 was CFR 15064 manufactured in September 1994. It was disposed of from ASU/CFB Montreal in April 2007.

[James Whyte]

I have a 1985 Bombardier Iltis. Wondering if anyone has info on units it may have been with or where it went.

Identification number is BI-01-04-85-87012

Thanks

[Ed Storey]

Your Iltis 87012 was disposed of out of 25 CF Depot, Montreal in Sept 2005 and you are lucky as you have a vehicle with some overseas service as it had been used in both Haiti and Yugoslavia. I suspect your Iltis was being used with SFOR in Bosnia prior to being returned to Montreal.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by charlie fitton

Thanks Rob, I was hoping to find a correlation between cfr and ser no.... a hint of a pattern, anyway.

Does make one wonder how many of these were actually ordered. When I first started going to the supply depot in London (1973 or so) , there were 99 (I counted) still in the crates ...

Unfortunately, like many of the early individual DND vehicle fleets, there was no correlation between the CFR and the serial number. In this case the fleet name was Motorcycle, Light, 500 cc, Triumph TRW. I have a document which refers to a Mk 2 version but I am not sure if Canada used more than one Mark version of this motorcycle or what the differences between the bike marks was. Your number of 99 crated bikes certainly falls in line with the indicators leading to well over 100 being acquired, but I have yet to discover what the actual number was. The term 'Pattern' is not often, if ever, used in official vehicle nomenclature being reserved more for clothing and individual equipment.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

The term 'Pattern' is not often, if ever, used in official vehicle nomenclature being reserved more for clothing and individual equipment.

SMP = Standard military pattern
CMP = Cdn Military Pattern

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by rob love

SMP = Standard military pattern
CMP = Cdn Military Pattern

Yes I should have been more specific, I was not thinking broad-brush but was more focused on the individual vehicle nomenclatures such as there is nothing listed as a Pattern 1956 Triumph Motorcycle.

[Alex Sandor Csank]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I have a document which refers to a Mk 2 version but I am not sure if Canada used more than one Mark version of this motorcycle or what the differences between the bike marks was.

The Mk2 simply refers to the changes made by Triumph to the TRW during their production run from 1950 through 1964. According to the research I have been able to cobble together, most of the Canadian TRWs were Mk2 models, being produced from about 1956 through 1958. The Mk1 was probably never shipped to Canada, while the Mk2B was the last series, built from about 1960 or 61 through the end of production. The differences between the models were not major changes.

Re high!
Alex

[Sean McKee]

I recently acquired an M151A2 and am interested in getting some history on what unit(s) it served in and where. No tac markings that are visible (it was repainted when welded back together) that could help tell the story. All I have is the serial on the data plate.

AM General 74-95012292
Engine looks to be original to the vehicle and is manufactured by Ford Canada (BTW, were the Ford engines in M151A2 CDN painted white? Mine is and just wondering if this is correct to the 74 pattern jeeps.

[rob love]

I never saw a Cdn made engine. There were grey painted engines, which were rebuilt. Never saw one in white. Original engines were semigloss black.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Sean McKee

I recently acquired an M151A2 and am interested in getting some history on what unit(s) it served in and where. No tac markings that are visible (it was repainted when welded back together) that could help tell the story. All I have is the serial on the data plate.

AM General 74-95012292
Engine looks to be original to the vehicle and is manufactured by Ford Canada (BTW, were the Ford engines in M151A2 CDN painted white? Mine is and just wondering if this is correct to the 74 pattern jeeps.

Unfortunately your serial number does not match any of the Canadian M151A2 vehicles in my database. What is the contract number on your data plate?

[Sean McKee]

Scott, I was up at Brian Asbury’s today and we looked at an original AM General data plate from a Canadian contract M151A2 which was a proper 5-digit serial stamped on the data plate. There is a corresponding Ziebart plate with a 74-9XXXX number that was written on the back, so our assumption is on my jeep is that whoever restored it put on a replacement data plate and used the CFR number as part of a “self-created” VIN in order to register it with the Ministry of Transportation in Alberta or BC.

Is it possible for you to use what I am assuming to be the vehicle CFR (74-95012) to check the database to find the 5-digit serial?

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Unfortunately your serial number does not match any of the Canadian M151A2 vehicles in my database. What is the contract number on your data plate?

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Sean McKee

Scott, I was up at Brian Asbury’s today and we looked at an original AM General data plate from a Canadian contract M151A2 which was a proper 5-digit serial stamped on the data plate. There is a corresponding Ziebart plate with a 74-9XXXX number that was written on the back, so our assumption is on my jeep is that whoever restored it put on a replacement data plate and used the CFR number as part of a “self-created” VIN in order to register it with the Ministry of Transportation in Alberta or BC.

Is it possible for you to use what I am assuming to be the vehicle CFR (74-95012) to check the database to find the 5-digit serial?

Unfortunately the CFR (74-95012) you are hoping to use for your M151A2 was actually assigned to a piece of road construction equipment.

[Alex Sandor Csank]

Originally Posted by rob love

If you go back in this thread to page 6, the 6 trws that showed on the EDR viewer are listed there: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...&postcount=170


Or to save you from getting lost, I'll cut and paste the info here:

CFR List

As of 09-NOV-10

Formation : -

Unit : -

Disposal Status : ALL

Year Number HUIC Holding Unit ERN ERN Description
1956 93492 0145 CFB LAHR 30901 MOTORCYCLES ALL TRIUMPH B2
1957 93873 0122 CFB CHILLIWACK 30901 MOTORCYCLES ALL TRIUMPH B2
1957 93874 0122 CFB CHILLIWACK 30901 MOTORCYCLES ALL TRIUMPH B2
1957 93906 0145 CFB LAHR 30901 MOTORCYCLES ALL TRIUMPH B2
1957 93908 0114 CFB/ASU Kingston 30901 MOTORCYCLES ALL TRIUMPH B2
1957 93912 0114 CFB/ASU Kingston 30901 MOTORCYCLES ALL TRIUMPH B2

Thanks! Looking at the end of the data, it appears that the six you have listed may all have been 'Mk2B' models. That in itself is interesting! Wishing there was more information about our Canadian TRWs available.

Rev high!
Alex

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Alex Sandor Csank

Thanks! Looking at the end of the data, it appears that the six you have listed may all have been 'Mk2B' models. That in itself is interesting! Wishing there was more information about our Canadian TRWs available.

Rev high!
Alex

While the DND vehicle lists are helpful in determining how many vehicles of a particular type were in use and their CFR range; I have encountered some errors with respect to the recorded vehicle type. Cross checking with the documents in my collection; I came up with a 1959 dated Data Summary which records the vehicle as a TRW, a 1956 Ordnance Parts Identification List for a TRW Mk2B and a 1955 User Handbook for a TRW. All three documents are Canadian although the User Handbook is a British publication. I think the answer might lie within the 1960 Ordnance Catalogue for Vehicles and Tracked Equipment which records the Canadian Army at the time using the Triumph Model TRW - 1950, Triumph Model TR5 - 1953 and the Triumph TRW Mk2B - 1956-1957. All of these Motorcycles were classed part of the Standard Commercial Pattern.

[rob love]

Interesting...I have a TRW that has a very early 1950 frame but the motor serial is from the mid/late 50s. I think my frame number is somewhere around the 14th or 17th TRW made. I assumed it was a replacement frame from the UK or elswhere, but your information, Ed, makes me wonder.

[Alex Sandor Csank]

While I don't have any sort of complete data about the TRW 500s delivered to Canada and used by the Canadian Army and RCAF, I DO know that they were used at several bases across Canada by both the Army (MP, Provost, Signal Corps) and the RCAF. The C.A.R. numbers for which I have found photos are all stenciled in white paint on both sides of the fuel tanks, and the ones I have been able to find have all been 56-XXXXX through 57-XXXXX. There is some, but not lots, of information in the "Only TRW" Facebook Group, some manuals and other data on the "Triumph Pre-Unit" Facebook Group, and at various British bike websites.

Here's the best information about the serial numbers. These are based on the engine numbers, but all TRWs left the factory with matching engine and frame numbers. Obviously, if an engine failure occured, a different engine would be fitted:

Mine is #26232NA (1957). It is a matching numbers TRW 500, (apparently) built on the 25th of September 1956. According to Triumph records, TRW 26232NA was dispatched to the Canadian Army on the 19th of January 1957 with gearbox number 85822, which also matches the number on my bike.

TRW Military 500cc Side-Valve Twins
YEAR (batch production total) Engine Numbers
1950 (58) / 14401N-14459N
1951 (unable to calculate. #s do not make sense) / 6044NA - 14320NA
1952 (837) 22001NA - 22838NA
1953 (434) 22839NA - 23273NA
1954 (48) 23274NA - 23322NA
1955 (274) 23323NA - 23597NA
1956 (1879) 23598NA - 25447NA
1957 (1679) 25448NA - 27127MA
1958 (47) 27128NA - 27175NA
1959 (170) 27176NA - 27346NA
1960 (298) 27347NA - 27645NA
1961 (539) 27646NA - 28185NA
1962 (278) 28186NA - 28464NA
1963 (641) 28465NA - 28827NA
1964 (777) 28828NA - 29605NA

Total: 7959 (Unable to calculate the numbers for 1951). The current data published in a couple of places states that a total of 15939 TRW 500s were built between 1950 and 1964. That would mean that the production run for 1951 would have to be 7980, which is pretty unlikely because Triumph just did not have the production capacity to produce that many in one year in 1951.

I'll post tis in the Post War Motorcycle THread as well.

I hope that helps.

Rev high,
Alex