Sherman Crab T147955 “Avalon” Overloon. Regiment? Damage?

[Alex van de Wetering]

Some more IWM pictures.

BU 1213
source: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205206892
BU 1211
source: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205206891

Both pictures are taken on 17 October 1944 near Venray. Again, not Avalon, but I do think these are A Squadron Westminster Dragoons.
It also shows that the tanks weren't yet fitted with the track link armour, which is something I presume was done about half november.....and a very faint number on the side of the turret, of the crab missing part of the armour around the flail gear-case.

[Alex van de Wetering]

B 12028

Here is another fascinating shot that appears in a number of books with different dates and locations.
According to the IWM the picture was taken on 22 november 1944 "east of Beringe". It has "West Dgns" on the back written in pencil.
I wonder if the picture shows A Squadron Crabs again, as the second crab in line has a similar (the same?) configuration of storage boxes on the left hull side that can be seen on the pictures taken in Tilburg.

The war Diary describes A Squadron active near Steeg, which is 10km North-North East of Beringe.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205206478

[MicS]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

B 12028

Here is another fascinating shot that appears in a number of books with different dates and locations.
According to the IWM the picture was taken on 22 november 1944 "east of Beringe". It has "West Dgns" on the back written in pencil.
I wonder if the picture shows A Squadron Crabs again, as the second crab in line has a similar (the same?) configuration of storage boxes on the left hull side that can be seen on the pictures taken in Tilburg.

The war Diary describes A Squadron active near Steeg, which is 10km North-North East of Beringe.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205206478

This storage configuration is typical of the whole of W Dgns, not just of 'A' Sqn. Although the naming system (if any) of W Dgns tanks is still a mystery to me, I would bend towards 'C' Sqn, because next photo (B12029) shows Crab 'CITY O' GLOUCESTER':


Michel

[MicS]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Some more IWM pictures.

BU 1213
source: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205206892
BU 1211
source: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205206891

Both pictures are taken on 17 October 1944 near Venray. Again, not Avalon, but I do think these are A Squadron Westminster Dragoons.
It also shows that the tanks weren't yet fitted with the track link armour, which is something I presume was done about half november.....and a very faint number on the side of the turret, of the crab missing part of the armour around the flail gear-case.

Yes, from the turret number (28, possibly 29) of the Crab in BU1211 this should be 'A' Sqn. Also, the Crab on BU1213 is probably T147892 of 'A' Sqn, listed as 'bogged' in the AFV Cas State dated 30 Nov 44 (see my post #54 above).

Michel

[Alex van de Wetering]

I would bend towards 'C' Sqn, because next photo (B12029) shows Crab 'CITY O' GLOUCESTER':

Good point Michel! I couldn't find a conclusive answer in the war diaries, but hadn't looked at the other pictures in the series.

I note the track armor on these tanks are placed top to bottom, rather than on it's side as seen on Avalon. I wonder if this is just a coincidence, or an actual way to tell the different squadrons apart.

[Alex van de Wetering]

I am still trying to find a picture of Avalon during WW2, before being knocked out (or just after being knocked out). Sadly, the angle of most pictures and the presence of camouflage netting and stowage make it hard to see which is which.

Avalon is somewhat different from most Crabs in that it has a direct vision M4A4 hull, which means the covers for the periscopes are fitted to the hatches rather than fitted on the hull itself. This means that if the hatches are open in a picture, you could possibly determine if a tank is an early direct vision one.
The picture attached shows the difference between the periscope covers layouts. (This is a picture of the London victory parade in 1946 and shows Westminster Dragoons Crab mk2's) .

i996741.jpg
source:https://www.imcdb.org/v996741.html


The other picture attached is a picture that has always fascinated me. Sadly you can't see the hatches, but it does have the same gun mantlet, sight and .30 mount as Avalon..... and I think I can just make out the type of skid on the first bogie...... but it doesn't show an antenna on the right hand side of the hull.....even though you often see Shermans with just the aerial base without the actual antenna fitted.
The picture was taken on D-day, Queen beach (Sword) which is where some tanks of A-Squadron Westminster Dragoons landed. Does anyone know of any more pictures of the same tank....or film footage?
Michel, what are your thoughts on this picture.....Westminster Dragoons?

Screenshot_2020-07-26 D-DAY - BRITISH FORCES DURING THE INVASION OF NORMANDY 6 JUNE 1944.jpg
source:https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205201950

[David Herbert]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Avalon is somewhat different from most Crabs in that it has a direct vision M4A4 hull, which means the covers for the periscopes are fitted to the hatches rather than fitted on the hull itself.

Alex is quite right here but he is referring to the special covers fitted only to Crab hull periscopes. His first photo shows them both rather well.

With ordinary gun tanks the hull hatches of direct vision port Shermans are exactly the same as later small hatch Shermans. The difference was that the direct vision ports were replaced by a mounting for another identical periscope to the hatch periscope. This second mounting could be adjusted for elevation but not turned sideways as the hatch mount could be. Both mountings had a hinged sheet metal rain cover which was sprung to the closed position. The hatch periscope mount could also have a guard made of about 8mm diameter steel rod fitted to prevent damage to the top of the periscope but this was a later feature and is often missing even on later tanks.

However, on very early Shermans it was possible to open the hull hatches so that they laid flat on the top of the hull if the periscope was not mounted. This was changed at ABOUT the time that direct vision ports were deleted and a stop was added that limited hatch opening to about 135 degrees so that the driver's head was protected a bit from the side and the hatch could be closed more easily in an emergency. Thus if the hatch can be seen to be lying flat on the hull roof, the tank is PROBABLY a direct vision port one. Many tanks were upgraded to prevent the hatch lying flat so it not lying flat proves nothing about direct vision ports.

David

[Alex van de Wetering]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

Sorry Alex but the hull hatches of direct vision port Shermans are exactly the same as later small hatch Shermans. The difference was that the direct vision ports were replaced by a mounting for another identical periscope to the hatch periscope. This second mounting could be adjusted for elevation but not turned sideways as the hatch mount could be. Both mountings had a hinged sheet metal rain cover which was sprung to the closed position. The hatch periscope mount could also have a guard made of about 8mm diameter steel rod fitted to prevent damage to the top of the periscope but this was a later feature and is often missing even on later tanks.

However, on very early Shermans it was possible to open the hull hatches so that they laid flat on the top of the hull if the periscope was not mounted. This was changed at ABOUT the time that direct vision ports were deleted and a stop was added that limited hatch opening to about 135 degrees so that the driver's head was protected a bit from the side and the hatch could be closed more easily in an emergency. Thus if the hatch can be seen to be lying flat on the hull roof, the tank is PROBABLY a direct vision port one. Many tanks were upgraded to prevent the hatch lying flat so it not lying flat proves nothing about direct vision ports.

David

David,

I am talking about the periscope covers specific on Crabs. If you see a head on picture of a crab with the hatches open and the covers attached to the hatches, you know it's a direct vision hull.

[David Herbert]

Sorry Alex, I realized my mistake before reading this and corrected my post. Thanks for the drawings though !

David

[Alex van de Wetering]

A couple of observations.

On closer inspection of the picture of the children sitting on the Tank, shortly after the museum opened....it does show the extra aerial mount on the side of the turret, mentioned earlier in the thread. Today only the welds remain.
source:https://beeldbank.spaarnestadphoto.c...0&page=1&pos=9

Another picture shows one of the periscope covers laying on the front of the tank....sadly, those have disappeared a long time ago.

Alex

detail2.jpg detail3.jpg detail4.jpg

[MicS]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

The other picture attached is a picture that has always fascinated me. Sadly you can't see the hatches, but it does have the same gun mantlet, sight and .30 mount as Avalon..... and I think I can just make out the type of skid on the first bogie...... but it doesn't show an antenna on the right hand side of the hull.....even though you often see Shermans with just the aerial base without the actual antenna fitted.
The picture was taken on D-day, Queen beach (Sword) which is where some tanks of A-Squadron Westminster Dragoons landed. Does anyone know of any more pictures of the same tank....or film footage?
Michel, what are your thoughts on this picture.....Westminster Dragoons?

source:https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205201950

This one is from 22 DGNS and part of an Obstacle Clearance Team

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Picture of Avalon made by a visitor of the Overloon museum in the 1970s:

84D65805-54AE-4A15-8066-52813353755A.jpg
Courtesy of Joey Borrenbergs

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Could this book have more info?

https://uitgeverijaspekt.nl/boek/gee...-is-meer-heel/

ED8B4762-34CD-4D1A-8325-26FE9B9CC812.jpeg