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#1
05-10-20, 23:23
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At least two details point to this Crab almost certainly belonging to Westminster Dragoons: firstly, the 79 Armoured Division Formation Sign on the rear is on the right side of the tank, which is a distinctive WD feature; secondly, the name AVALON, if genuine, does not fit the naming patterns of 22 D.
Alex, you mentioned a photo at the Museum showing the name. Did you by any chance copy/photograph it? Michel 
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#2
06-10-20, 22:11
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Michel,
I was hoping you would join the discussion! I was just reading your analyses of 22nd Dragoons Crabs in Normandy on ww2talk; very interesting. Attached is a cutout of the picture I mentioned earlier; I can't show the whole picture, as I don't have the permission to do so. Please let me know what you think....it's hard to read, but I do read "Avalon"....or do I just want to read "Avalon"......? Thanks for your thoughts on Avalon likely being a Westminster Dragoons tank; I was leaning towards the same thing, but I haven't found the "smoking gun" yet. I have contacted the National Archives for the War Diaries of both Westminster and 22nd Dragoons, but due to the Covid situation things take a bit more time than usual. I was hoping to find the war diaries online, but no luck so far. Avalon name.jpg Avalon name2.jpg
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Chevrolet C8 cab 11 FFW BSA Folding Bicycle Last edited by Alex van de Wetering; 06-10-20 at 22:21.
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#3
06-10-20, 22:20
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Even though I haven't read the actual war diaries yet, I did buy and read some books on the battle of Broekhuizen, where the Westminster Dragoons were active.
"Slag in de Schaduw" by A. Korthals Altes actually writes that one crab got desperately stuck in the mud during the attack on Broekhuizen castle and was moved to the Overloon war museum shortly after the war. "De Bevrijding van de Gemeente Broekhuizen" by P.W.L Weijs has a detailed account of the battle of Broekhuizen castle and Broekhuizen village. It mentions that after the battle 2 crabs were left behind, presumably (the?) 1 that got desperately stuck in the mud and one that was put out of action by a Panzerfaust.....the tank commanded by "William Hall", mentioned earlier. "The story of Westminster Dragoons" sadly doesn't have too much detailed info on the battle in Broekhuizen, but I have to read the rest to see if it includes any info on census numbers and nicknames of tanks. I have also contacted the local archive of Broekhuizen and the historical society for info....you would think that pictures would exist of the tanks that were left behind....or maybe a written account of one being picked up for a use as a monument in a museum....but sadly they couldn't help out. They did know what I was talking about and knew about the "lost" identity of the Overloon crab.
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Chevrolet C8 cab 11 FFW BSA Folding Bicycle Last edited by Alex van de Wetering; 06-10-20 at 22:31.
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#4
07-10-20, 09:11
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As a sidenote I have Sherman T 211819 , named Spitfire II , And I think it has remnants of the 79th division marking on it . It must have been a command tank , because it has the extra aerial mount on the co drivers side , and an additional one on the turret side . Avalon also has the extra aerial mount on the co drivers side . Does anybody know what set was installed there ?
It would be remarkable if 2 Shermans from the same Battle would be still alive .
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#5
07-10-20, 14:27
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Many thanks to Alex for posting the photos with the name. I agree that the name is AVALON. Eventhough the second and third letters are not absolutely clear, what few parts we can see of them leaves not doubt about their being V and A respectively.
I finally found the time to look up the Westminster Dragoons War Diary, and found the following AFV Casualty State as of 30 November, where T147955 is mentioned. This is all the luckier as AFV Cas States are a very rare occurrence in War Diaries. The Westminster Dragoons itself has them for only a couple of months. This State reads: A Sqn, T147955, Crab V, X Casualty, located at STOKT 9021, Transmission unserviceable, with the additional note (also applying to 3 other tank casualties) "recovery probably delayed owing to conditions": 1 - WD War Diary - AFV Cas State 30 Nov 44 - T147955 - Notes.jpg The War Diary for 30 Nov states that "Cas one CRAB transmission jammed by heavy mine explosion". This Crab belonged to 2 Tp A Sqn: 2 - WD War Diary 1944 11 23-30 - Notes.jpg 3 - WD War Diary 1944 11 30.jpg A previous mention of a new type of damage by Riegelmine 43 mines had been made in the War Diary for 13 Oct regarding the attack on OVERLOON, where it was noted that "All mines in this area were R Mi 43 and not the usual Teller or Holz mine. They had less effect on tracks and bogies but two rotors of C Sqn CRABS were bent by blast. This had not been previously experienced." This explains AVALON's bent rotor. 4 - WD War Diary 1944 10 08-14 - R Mi43 - two rotors bent - Noed.jpg On 1 Nov, an attempt was made to recover the tanks, during which Lt GS COOPER was killed by a Schumine. One may presume that this was one of the reasons why AVALON was abandoned rather than recovered, together with the extent of the damage it had suffered: 5 - WD War Diary 1944 12 01-06 - BROCKHUIZEN 9021 - Notes.jpg Michel Last edited by MicS; 07-10-20 at 19:14.
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#6
07-10-20, 14:33
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As a complement to the above, the following extract from "The Westminster Dragoons in North-West Europe June 1944 - May 1945" provides some additional details (my highlights in Bold):
Broekhuizen Towards the end of November 1944 there were only one or two pockets of German resistance left west of the River Maas. One such pocket was that at the village of BROEKHUIZEN on the west bank of the river and the neighbouring KASTEEL, where a company of tough paratroops from 20 Para Regiment were holding out. Supplies reached them at night by means of a ferry over the river at that point. One attack on the Kasteel by a platoon of 9 Bn Cameron Highlanders had been successfully repulsed, the platoon being wiped out almost to a man. On 29 November orders were received for two troops of A Squadron to proceed from DEURNE where the Squadron was then located, to the BROEKHUIZEN area to support 3 Bn Monmouthshire Regiment of 11 Armoured Division in an attack on this strongpoint the following day. Leaving Capt P.J.S. Squirrell to bring the tanks of the Squadron up the twenty odd miles, Major Wallace went ahead with Lt Hall and Lt Cooper, the troop leaders concerned, to carry out a reconnaissance of the enemy positions and contact the troops with whom the Squadron was to co-operate. They arrived at the village of STOCKT just west of BROEKHUIZEN with only about half an hour of daylight left, and were taken forward by an officer of 3 Mons through the deserted and battered village to an observation post in the last house from which one could see across to the Kasteel about 200 yards away. One at a time they peered cautiously through a hole in the roof and saw a large and solidly built two-storied building with a moat on the near side. Of particular interest were a few small wooden pegs in the ground, which it was suspected marked the minefield. Local Dutch inhabitants had said this protected the enemy position on its south side. There was not a sign of life about the Kasteel. At intervals single shells burst in the air above it in a small black cloud, and in the failing light the place had a vaguely sinister air. The officers hurried back to the scout cars at the other end of the village as they were due almost immediately at an "O" Group at the battalion headquarters of 3 Mons a mile or so away. On arrival they met officers from the artillery and 15/19 Hussars, who were also supporting the infantry. The Colonel of the Battalion outlined the plan for the next day's attack and final details were tied up between the supporting arms and infantry. At the conclusion of orders the three officers went back up the road to a rendez-vous previously arranged with Capt Squirell and were pleased to find that he and the tanks had already arrived and were harboured along the edge of a wood. The Squadron Leader gave his orders for the following day and after a hot meal all except the guards turned in for the night, hoping that no German patrols from across the river would arrive suddenly to disturb their night's rest. The German artillery from across the Maas shelled the area spasmodically throughout the night and the sound of each shell-burst was magnified many times as it echoed and re-echoed through the silent woods. One had little idea whether they were a mile or two away or only a few hundred yards. Next morning the flails moved off through the woods towards the start line ahead of a squadron of 15/19 Hussars who had been harbouring nearby. The route lay along a typical Dutch mud track which threatened to disintegrate at any moment beneath the weight of the tanks. Within a short time its banks had collapsed in two places, two of the flails became bogged blocking the route, and it looked as if they might prevent all the tanks behind them from reaching the start line on time. One was towed out without much loss of time and it was found just possible to get tanks past the other. At 1000 hrs the first three flails of 2 Tp advanced ahead of the infantry towards the Kasteel, the first objective, supported by mortar and artillery concentrations. The two tanks of Squadron headquarters took up positions in a gap between two small woods, from which they could engage both the Kasteel and BROEKHUIZEN, which was the objective of the second phase of the attack. After going about a hundred yards the flails started exploding mines, one was put out of action and Serjeant Bee commanding another wounded when his tank was hit by an enemy shell. The crew of the damaged tank were ordered to ''bail out" after putting down local smoke and got back safely. Another flail was sent forward to take their place and all three lanes were successfully completed to within a few yards of the Kasteel although the infantry following behind them suffered heavy casualties from the enemy artillery, which was putting down heavy and accurate fire using the Church tower at ARCEN on the other side of the Maas as an observation post. Having done their job the flails of 2 Tp returned, and were ordered to make a lane up to the Kasteel from the west. Here they ran into bad ground and both got bogged. At eleven o'clock three flails of 4 Tp under Lt Hall advanced towards BROEKHUIZEN for the second phase of the attack, and the fire of the Squadron HQ tanks, which up till now had been firing at the Kasteel and putting down smoke for 2 Tp, was switched onto this new target. One could see little spurts of flame from German machine guns among the buildings and round after round of HE was fired at the houses. The flails did their job magnificently and made lanes up to the village for the infantry, who were being held up by the enemy's machine gun fire. After completing his lane, Lt Hall's tank was hit by a bazooka and brewed up, luckily not before the crew were able to "bail out". Lt Hall and his operator, Tpr McCartney, were wounded and evacuated at once to a nearby medical post. By this time the infantry had got into BROEKHUIZEN and dealt with the enemy there. But outside the Kasteel, the defenders were putting up a desperate defence, inflicting casualties on our men every time they showed themselves outside the ditches in which they were taking cover. Orders were received to clear the route to the Kasteel from STOKT, and, sending the remainder of the flails to rally a few hundred yards to the rear, the Squadron Leader took two round to the village. One commanded by Serjeant Bailey swept the road to within a few yards of the entrance to the Kasteel and then became bogged. Major Wallace met the Colonel of 3 Mons, in STOKT and gave him what information he had. A few minutes later the Colonel of 3 Mons was killed while very gallantly trying to lead his men in person into the Kasteel. It seemed impossible for the infantry to take the place by frontal assault, and so tanks of the 15/19 Hussars came up the lanes that had been-made and bombarded it at point blank range until eventually the enemy surrendered. Operations of comparatively small scale such as this can very often be more costly to the units concerned than much larger battles. 3 Mons lost 10 officers and 100 Other Ranks in clearing up this enemy pocket and at the end of the day had a Serjeant in command of one of their Companies. During this operation A Squadron had one officer, Lt G. S. Cooper, killed and one officer and two Other Ranks wounded. A Special Order of the Day was issued by the Commanding Officer at the conclusion of this operation. The Special Order of the Day is in the December War Diary: 6 - WD War Diary - Special Order of the Day 4 Dec 44 - A Sqn BROCKHUISEN.JPG Michel
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#7
07-10-20, 23:29
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Quote:
Thanks for these I have added to and cross checked against my census number database and found a couple of things. I had T212594 as belonging to 22 Dragoons turret No. 47 via Vanguard To Victory by David Fletcher (details must have been forwarded to me as i do not have this book). T147892 appears in a 27th Armd Brg workshops return ( sent to me by Tom O'Brien on WW2Talk) Cheers Kevin
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#8
08-10-20, 14:21
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Quote:
Crab T212594 - Vanguard of Victory p25.jpg This turret No.47 might be the result of a confusion with IWM B5141, showing Cpl Barton's Crab No.47 of 1 Tp of B Sqn Westminster Dragoons on JIG GREEN West. I do not know of any other photo of this Crab which shows its Reg. No.: IWM B 5141.jpg © IWM (B 5141) Michel Last edited by MicS; 08-10-20 at 18:21. Reason: edited to attach photo
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#9
10-10-20, 16:53
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Quote:
It lists that no.4 troop A squadron under command of William Hall was in Tilburg from 28 to 30 October, with 5 flails and a Command Tank manned by Capt. Squirrell. I found the pictures attached in the local Tilburg Archive, which has to be this group Even though we now know that Avalon is not in this troop, but in no.2 troop in stead, I decided to post the images, as they give a nice view of the storages boxes and extra chains on the side of the hull, just like the one fitted to Avalon. Quote:
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Chevrolet C8 cab 11 FFW BSA Folding Bicycle Last edited by Alex van de Wetering; 10-10-20 at 17:07.
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#10
07-10-20, 14:58
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Quote:
It's actually SPITFIRE IV, belonging to HQ C Sqn 22 Dragoons. See (from 02:00): https://www.britishpathe.com/video/montys-new-offensive Michel
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#11
07-10-20, 17:38
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Sherman T-211819 "Spitfire IV”
Quote:
119 images.britishpathe.com.jpg 120 images.britishpathe.com.jpg 121 images.britishpathe.com.jpg 122 images.britishpathe.com.jpg 123 images.britishpathe.com.jpg
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Regards, Hanno -------------------------- Last edited by Hanno Spoelstra; 08-10-20 at 16:24. Reason: edited to attach more photos
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#12
07-10-20, 20:48
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Michel,
Terrific to see you have the war diaries!......and hereby you have solved the "identity crisis" of Avalon!  We can now confirm that, at the time it was put out of action, Avalon was part of the Westminster Dragoons....and it also confirms that Broekhuizen was the final resting place. I will contact the Overloon museum and send them the link to this thread, so they can see the confirmation. Hopefully we can convince them to correct the AoS at the next repaint....and correct the sign next to it.So, based on the war diary, Avalon was part of 2 troop , A squadron Westminster Dragoons, which means that it was not William Hall's tank at the time, as he was the commander of 4 troop. Quote:
Quote:
I also saw it mentioned in Kevins Excel list. Alex
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Chevrolet C8 cab 11 FFW BSA Folding Bicycle Last edited by Alex van de Wetering; 08-10-20 at 00:14.
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#13
07-10-20, 23:35
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Quote:
Thanks to you an Michel for getting to the bottom of this little mystery and solving it. If you do come across anymore names or census numbers in the book will you please let me know. Cheers Kevin
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#14
08-10-20, 04:52
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Michel, Excellent work!
Maurice/David Herbert, The extra aerial base on the right rear of the turret is for a WS38 Plan “A” installation which used a standard WS38 (not WS38 AFV). Installation drawings can be found here (very poor quality images): https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...17/186?r=3&s=4 I agree that an aerial base located by the co-driver should indicate a hull mounted set ( but what type of set?). I am surprised by the presence of the hull mounted aerial base on AVALON as space on the right sponson was already restricted in the Crab. 9EFC51DA-C4C9-4362-A680-EDF3CA006346.jpeg
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#15
08-10-20, 09:55
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Wow that Image from Spitfire IV is spot on , I thought it was II because the paint remains on the weld were almost completely gone , the first I is clear .
Rest is also spot on , the additional aerial bracket is on the same spot , hole for cable goes through hole in turret wall,No side skirt strips , and additional armour plate position is the same . About the aerial on the right front on Avalon , and on mine , there is more room in Avalon , then in a standard Gun tank , in mine there is only the space in front of the ammo bin , a 19 set will not fit In there ! Was Spitfire IV also involved in the Battle around Overloon ? This is very interesting , it is another bit of history from the Netherlands Surviving , so I have to Speed up the Restauration . I will take some pictures from the turret .
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#16
08-10-20, 16:52
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Quote:
Great to know that another Sherman from a Flail unit survived and will be restored! Did you find any trace of a turret number on your tank? It is possible, or rather, it is likely, that there was none, because it appears that replacement tanks in Flail regiments were seldom given a turret number (and SPITFIRE IV is the third avatar of the original...), but it would be nice to find one! Michel
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#17
08-10-20, 10:41
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