Sherman Crab T147955 “Avalon” Overloon. Regiment? Damage?

[Alex van de Wetering]

The hub of that flail is really banged up. Perhaps enough to have put it out of balance? Some of the control arms on the right side for the Flail also appear to be broken, missing or disconnected? Again, I wonder if all is connected to having hit a mine.

the primary reason Avalon was put out of action may well be due to mines.

I agree; I think before being put out of action, Avalon was already crippled from mine damage. I think the flail jammed and the drive shaft on the right snapped. Today half of the drive shaft is hanging from the right hand side, but in the early days the other end of the shaft was also still present. Maybe the mine damage and it loosing a track meant it was a sitting duck for any German weapons.

I think I have seen tall boxes like the one on the left side of the Crab, on both sides of a Crab on display at Borden. They might be Chalk Boxes used to mark either side of the trail being cleared.

I actually think the left hand side box on Avalon in the early museum days was an ex-wading stack used as a box for spare chain, which I think I have seen on more Crabs, especially during the fighting in Normandy. It seems not all crabs had the chalk boxes or the later arrow system.
The long box seen in some pictures is the standard British tool box seen on Sherman V's. I think Avalon might have had two as I seem to see a crushed one on the rear of the tank as well. I think the other one might have been welded on the left hand hull side, behind the other box, as there are still some welds in that location today. The right hand hull side also shows some welds.....these are closer spaced; I think this might have been where the standard British turret box might have been located when it was hit by multiple rounds. I couldn't find any remains (angle iron) or welded on the rear of the turret that would indicate the box to ever been fitted there.

The turret is always in the same position. I cannot imagine at least one person in all these years not having tried to move it. Any indications it still works and it is just being kept ‘as found’, or is it jammed?

Exactly my thought! I presume it's jammed. Ten years ago the museum gave me permission to enter the tank, but I didn't try to turn the turret!

I would not focus on the terrain you see in the pictures.

Well David did got me thinking! All sources say the tank was moved from the battlefield to the museum, but I agree with David that the look of the terrain in some of the early pictures is somewhat similar to what the resting place of the tank would have looked like after some exploding mines! Than again....I guess moving around a Crab without a right hand track in soft sand, will give a similar look.

[Alex van de Wetering]

The dark rectangular mark could be the name or another marking painted out, that happened quite often after a vehicle was struck off strength

I can confirm that it actually says "Avalon" in white in a picture of it early in it's museum life. I have no clue why it shows up as a dark patch in later pictures, as this was already when it was a museum exhibit.

Summing up, we would need to get access to the war diaries of the two regiments mentioned above and see which Crabs were lost due to mines and/or enemy fire.

I was hoping the war diaries were to be found online somewhere, but no luck so far. I think I will send a request to the UK National Archives.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Attached are some close-ups of the impacts on Avalon. In the first picture you can make out a larger circle of small damages around some of the penetrations.

In case anyone wonders...that CSI-thingy is my lazy-mans tape measure for scale modelling....the small squares are 1x1cm. the larger ones 5x5cm.

Alex

Impact0.jpg Impact1.jpg Impact2.jpg Impact3.jpg Impact4.jpg

[Alex van de Wetering]

And some pictures of the inside. I am afraid the camera flash and rust makes the penetrations hard to see, so I added some arrows to make it a bit clearer.

Dommage1.JPG Dommage2.JPG Dommage3.JPG Dommage4.jpg Dommage5.jpg

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

And some pictures of the inside.

I hope you don’t mind me posting these, in which I think the scarring is much easier to see:

P1010031.jpg P1010019.jpg P1010024.jpg P1010053.jpg

The fact that the internal bracing has also bent in that last photo to me points to a projectile rather than a shaped charge striking it. I would more expect it to have simply been gouged out with a shaped charge. It also shows the downward angle: the damage to the brace is slightly below the hole in the hull side.

[Alex van de Wetering]

I hope you don’t mind me posting these, in which I think the scarring is much easier to see:

Well, I would have preferred if you had asked me first, than at the very least I could have added a watermark. Also at least one of the pics is the same....and the other failed to upload last night.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Well, I would have preferred if you had asked me first, than at the very least I could have added a watermark.

Sorry about that Watermarks are not something I normally bother with, so I didn’t stop to think other people might want to.

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Also at least one of the pics is the same....

You’re right, I failed to spot that it was already in your post.

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

If the brace on the right side is bent, and relates to the flail drive

Are you referring to the same brace I was? Because if so, that isn’t related to the flail drive but is a normal structural brace in Shermans, and I meant the bend in it in line with a penetration, which looks like it was made by the round coming through the side.

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Be interesting to know if there is enough energy in an anti personnel mine to break a tank track link and cause little other damage.

Some can, but it depends on the type of mine, the type of vehicle and probably exactly where it blows up under the track and wheels. Impossible to tell, I’d say, without knowing all of these variables.

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

I think the brace was either damaged by rounds coming through the sides, or from an internal explosion of ammunition.

You mean a penetrating projectile whose HE charge detonated, right? Because the interior of this Sherman looks too good for one whose 75 mm ammo had detonated. (Also: there was no 75 mm ammo storage in this area of a Crab, because the rounds went through the opening in the brace, meaning the flail drive chain case was in the way.)

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Would you know if the Crab was intended to operate with a reduced ammunition load for the 75mm compared to the standard Sherman

See above: the right front ammo rack had to be removed to make room for the flail drive. Here is the right hull front interior on a restored M4A4:


(source)

The big white box just in front of the brace, with the silver-grey box stuck to its side, is an ammo rack for 75 mm rounds. You can just see the round retention clips through the opening in the brace. This whole rack had to be removed to make room for the flail drive, which goes through a rectangular hole cut in the hull side just in front of that brace.

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

I am just not sure how much extra weight the Flail System added to a Sherman

About two tons, I think.

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

nor how much internal space was lost for the modifications, nor what, if anything was given up to make the modification work.

Quite a bit, though of course the interior isn’t exactly spacious to begin with anyway. I built a model of a Crab with a partial interior (which I’d never have been able to do without Alex’s help, BTW), and was surprised at how much room that chain case takes up.

[David Dunlop]

I wonder how well the lower area of the interior has been cleaned over the years and if any of the things found there were kept by the museum?

Two things can happen with a solid shot round striking armour. At the very least, one hopes the energy transfer is great enough to spall a chunk of inside hull free to fly into the interior to do damage to crew and equipment. As the size and energy behind the round increases, full penetration of the hull will occur and the round itself will bounce around inside the hull, greatly increasing the damage risk to everyone and thing inside, until the energy is spend and the round falls to the floor, spent. Given enough size and energy, of course, the round will pass right through the vehicle struck.

Alex mentions no sign of exit holes on the left side of the hull, so if we are looking at 15 to 20mm round penetrations, and they all came at roughly the same time, there would have been a lot of metal flying around the interior of Avalon for several seconds. Unless lodged in soft metal somewhere, if would eventually fall to the floor.

If the brace on the right side is bent, and relates to the flail drive, could the damage be part of the overall effects of the Crab hitting a mine?

Mine fields typically have set patterns/spacing for maximum effect for a given number of mines. If mines are set in a cluster too close together, hitting one can trigger more in the group. That might have happened with AVALON, breaking the flail and the track on the right side. Depending on why she was at that location during the battle, the crew may have successfully abandoned AVALON. A short while later, a German vehicle arrives on the scene, assumes an active enemy vehicle has been spotted and fires a sweeping burst of cannon fire at it until realizing the Crab is already out of action and moves on.

Another possibility could be mines took the flail out somewhere else. AVALON was on the move to withdraw when she struck another mine that broke her track and she was abandoned.

One other point to consider. There are anti tank mines and anti personnel mines. It is not unusual for infantry to be able to move through an anti tank mine field because not enough weight hits the mine triggers. Leading infantry can walk an anti tank mine field without spotting anything and then wave vehicles through, only to watch as the mines start going off. Be interesting to know if there is enough energy in an anti personnel mine to break a tank track link and cause little other damage. AVALON could have been used to clear any type of mine field in a hurry, not just anti tank, so anything is possible without more detail.

Maybe some answers are still sitting at the bottom of AVALON?

David

[Alex van de Wetering]

I wonder how well the lower area of the interior has been cleaned over the years and if any of the things found there were kept by the museum?

David, when I was in the tank 10 years ago, the lower half of the tank was still filled with all sorts of litter from museum visitors; soda cans, snack packages and the like. I don't think the tank was cleaned all that often.....and they just closed up the hatches (except the escape hatch) to prevent visitors from entering (I am guessing somewhere in the 80's). However, I am sure a lot of stuff in the interior got damaged over the years in the museum from visitors breaking and stealing stuff, but also under influence from weather.
I am not aware of any remaining bits of Avalon in storage in the museum. The engine did get removed somewhere in the 90's/2000's and was in storage until a few years ago. It has since been sold and will hopefully power a restored Firefly soon.

I think both your suggestions on the final minutes of Avalon sound plausible.

If the brace on the right side is bent, and relates to the flail drive, could the damage be part of the overall effects of the Crab hitting a mine?

I think the brace was either damaged by rounds coming through the sides, or from an internal explosion of ammunition. I don't think damage to the flail itself could result in damage to the brace.

Regarding mine damage; I read somewhere that when the Germans also had a habit of fixing an extra mine or extra explosives to a mine in order to increase the blast disabling flail tanks.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

I was hoping the war diaries were to be found online somewhere, but no luck so far. I think I will send a request to the UK National Archives.

This may be of help:

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...d-war-research

[Alex van de Wetering]

This may be of help:

Thanks Hanno; I visit the Archives website regularly.

These are the ones to study:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/C4440973
https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/C4440950

It says you can send a request for a quotation for a copy of the documents. Some members on ww2talk also offer to scan items in the National Archives; I just don't know the current options given the Covid troubles.


The recommendation for William Hall is available online though
https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/C9050525
It does describe his actions at Overloon, but sadly there are no details on the name or census number of his tank.

[Maurice Donckers]

this flail could be Avalon , look at the mounting position of the track links on the turret , just it still has the cover on the front of the flail drive with 53 and 79th on . But off course there are more tanks with spare links on the turret .

[MicS]

Originally Posted by Maurice Donckers

this flail could be Avalon , look at the mounting position of the track links on the turret , just it still has the cover on the front of the flail drive with 53 and 79th on . But off course there are more tanks with spare links on the turret .

Maurice,

It cannot be AVALON, although the spare track links disposition does look similar. But the tanks have different types of commander's sights, i.e. the blade type sight on the photo with a group of troopers on it, and a vane type on AVALON:
Crab WD - Notes.jpg
AVALON - NationaalArchief2 - Notes.jpg

For more info on these two types, see (as always) the Sherman Minutiae page:
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_m..._variants.html

Michel

[Maurice Donckers]

Yes I see , no weld remains left
But be careful , some turrets (I have 2) have both types mounted .

[Alex van de Wetering]

It cannot be AVALON, although the spare track links disposition does look similar.

Also; it has the Whyman lane marker system, which as far as I know was never fitted to "Avalon". The Westminster Dragoons War diary mentions the first fitment of the Whyman lane marker system on November 13, and on december 29 it reads "jig for fitting Whyman lane markers received and fitting begun".

However, it's still a very interesting picture....it appears on at least 3 websites, so I am not sure where it originates from; I am presuming the picture was taken in 1945, possibly even shortly after the war ended. It also shows that the fitment of the track armour and the storage bins on the hull sides are somewhat similar on Westminster Dragoon crabs.