Sherman Crab T147955 “Avalon” Overloon. Regiment? Damage?

[Alex van de Wetering]

This document surfaced after I posted this thread on the Sherman Register FB page. It was found by Rik Teernstra at: http://www.geschiedenismelderslo.nl/...en_apr2001.pdf

Thanks Hanno (and Rik!), even though that document and the other wiki one probably won't give us the true identity and fate of Avalon, it does give us some very interesting reading on the battle!

Some areas of the former Operation Aintree battlefield have been surveyed to assess the risk of unexploded ordnance. Maybe surveys like this will yield additional info?

Clever idea Hanno! I hadn't thought of that and will look into this.
David's suggestion of going there with a metal detector is something I have thought about multiple times, but never did as I don't have the kit and knowledge, nor do I know what the rules are. It could however confirm if there is shrapnel in the ground, confirming you are on the right spot.
The Broekhuizen location is documented, but the other possible location in Boxmeer is a bit more troublesome, as I haven't found an exact location in or around Boxmeer yet.

Interestingly, none of the holes visible after the training can be seen today. All carefully filled to restore it to its after the battle condition?

I think they are two different tanks. The "monument" Tiger had a crippled barrell, but did retain it's right hand track. The picture you posted with the white camo is what is now the monument tank. The other is the one they used as a target, but I have to agree with David that only the small holes would be Panzerfaust, while the others would be normal rounds.

Allied forces purposely testing weapons on an important piece of kit as a Crab; I don't see that happen. Even if it's beyond repair, the tank could provide valuable parts as engine, gearbox, transmission, tracks, bogies etc.

To me it looks like someone fired an automatic cannon at it, ±20 mm calibre. Perhaps a German AA gun, perhaps an aircraft? The slight downward angle would point to the latter, but whether it was German or British is anyone’s guess, I suppose.

The downward angle is so shallow, that apart from an aircaft hit, I guess it could also have been a level shot, if the tank drove through a crater at the time.

Similarly I don't see any sign of these very distinctive radial marks on the photos of Avalon though the marks on the relatively thin cover plate on the back of the flail drive box are similar.

David, thanks for sharing the interesting panzerfaust info. I will try to put up some more pictures of the penetractions and the inside of Avalon tonight.....maybe that will help determine the weapon that caused them.
When I visited the museum a few months ago I did bring a "christmas" drill bit, but maybe I should have brought some fast curing clay
I do seem to remember there were some radial marks around some of the penetrations.

Hanno; I would be exciting if there was a link between Avalon and the Skink, but again I don't think it's likely that allied forces would purposely shoot on their own mine flail.

Thanks everyone!

Alex

[David Dunlop]

Alex.

Following is a copy of an email I sent to Hanno earlier this morning. Thought I should post it here as well.

The more I look at the photos posted, the more questions I have and the more I start to see.

The hub of that flail is really banged up. Perhaps enough to have put it out of balance? Some of the control arms on the right side for the Flail also appear to be broken, missing or disconnected? Again, I wonder if all is connected to having hit a mine.

I think I have seen tall boxes like the one on the left side of the Crab, on both sides of a Crab on display at Borden. They might be Chalk Boxes used to mark either side of the trail being cleared.

In a couple of the photos you posted showing the left side of the Crab, just forward of this tall box, there is a dark rectangular mark. Hard to tell if it is where something was fitted to the hull at one time or possibly a marking in a dark paint like a four or five letter word. Part of a WD number in white can be seen further aft on the left side.

A long storage box appears on the front of the Crab behind the flail assembly in some photos and then appears to be on the ground in front of the Crab, and then disappears. Storage for spare flail chains perhaps?

The turret is always in the same position. I cannot imagine at least one person in all these years not having tried to move it. Any indications it still works and it is just being kept ‘as found’, or is it jammed?

I wonder if war diaries for COOKIE might explain why it was abandoned and shed any light on the Crab? Both seem to be facing opposite directions. At Overloon, what would have been the general direction flow of the battle and how does that fit in with the orientation of the Crab and COOKIE? Both vehicles may not have been lost at the same time, but that, sadly is how my mind wanders at times. Sigh!

David

Hello Hanno.

This was the first article I found on the Panzerfausts and I ended up branching out from it and its references.

https://warspot.net/132-the-tank-s-hidden-foe

My thoughts on the Overloon Crab at this point are that based on what appears to be its original location, with the front right corner sitting so low, it hit a mine that may have damaged the Flail Drive in some way, putting it out of action. I am not certain how, or if, the Flail Drive interfaces with the Shermans main propulsion system, but perhaps damage to the Flail Drive jammed the Sherman power train and the Crab crew had to hunker down and wait it out, abandoning the Crab as soon as able to do so,

The record of this Crab has to be in one of the diaries of the Regiments using Crabs at Overloon. That is not the type of equipment you lose in combat and fail to log. We probably just have not yet found the right diaries.

And from the German side, Overloon was a very important battle. As chaotic as it might have been from their perspective, knocking out a Crab would warrant mention by them in their war diaries when time permitted. The risk with this, however, is whether or not any or all war diaries from their side survived the war.

Alex mentioned the hits on the right side of the Crab showed a low angle of elevation. This would certainly be consistent with any single, or multi-gunned 20mm cannon the Germans were using in vehicle mounted equipments. Be also interesting to map out the hits to see if any linearity of the overall hits can be identified. Easy for a single barrelled, or twin barrelled weapon but gets more difficult with a general burst from a Quad.

I wonder what the landscape was like to the right of the Crab where it came to rest? Would it have been open enough for a large vehicle with 20mm weapons on board to have had a clear field of fire at the flank of the Crab?

Funny how one vehicle can raise sooo many questions?

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Hi David D.,

When I read your email I also saw your reply here. Best to vent our thoughts and findings centrally, the more people can think and work collaboratively the better.

I would not focus on the terrain you see in the pictures. While the museum grounds were established on part of the former battlefield, many of the large exhibits came from the surrounding area, Avalon and Cookie included. I believe much of the transportation was done by the British Army as they had an interest in establishing the museum. It was formally opened by a high ranking British General one year after the war ended.

After our pondering about the peppering of the RH hull side, the primary reason Avalon was put out of action may well be due to mines. In the report above we can read some areas were heavily mined and the mines caused considerable losses among men and machines.

Seeing Avalon in the metal many decades ago the damage to the flail rotor struck me. I don’t recall seeing the damage to the RH side. It’s RH track has been missing since the war, it may well have been broken by a mine.
The Churchill on display at the museum has its hull bottom ripped out by a mine and standing inside, I tried to visualize what happened to the crew. Gruesome thought. But that is the very reason these mangled artifacts of war were put in the museum - so we would never forget about the atrocities of war.

Summing up, we would need to get access to the war diaries of the two regiments mentioned above and see which Crabs were lost due to mines and/or enemy fire.

Let’s keep this flowing, something good must come out of it.

43265B2F-C7A0-46EF-A35E-40AA3A23C062.jpg Avalon-museum2_redlined.jpg

[Alex van de Wetering]

The hub of that flail is really banged up. Perhaps enough to have put it out of balance? Some of the control arms on the right side for the Flail also appear to be broken, missing or disconnected? Again, I wonder if all is connected to having hit a mine.

the primary reason Avalon was put out of action may well be due to mines.

I agree; I think before being put out of action, Avalon was already crippled from mine damage. I think the flail jammed and the drive shaft on the right snapped. Today half of the drive shaft is hanging from the right hand side, but in the early days the other end of the shaft was also still present. Maybe the mine damage and it loosing a track meant it was a sitting duck for any German weapons.

I think I have seen tall boxes like the one on the left side of the Crab, on both sides of a Crab on display at Borden. They might be Chalk Boxes used to mark either side of the trail being cleared.

I actually think the left hand side box on Avalon in the early museum days was an ex-wading stack used as a box for spare chain, which I think I have seen on more Crabs, especially during the fighting in Normandy. It seems not all crabs had the chalk boxes or the later arrow system.
The long box seen in some pictures is the standard British tool box seen on Sherman V's. I think Avalon might have had two as I seem to see a crushed one on the rear of the tank as well. I think the other one might have been welded on the left hand hull side, behind the other box, as there are still some welds in that location today. The right hand hull side also shows some welds.....these are closer spaced; I think this might have been where the standard British turret box might have been located when it was hit by multiple rounds. I couldn't find any remains (angle iron) or welded on the rear of the turret that would indicate the box to ever been fitted there.

The turret is always in the same position. I cannot imagine at least one person in all these years not having tried to move it. Any indications it still works and it is just being kept ‘as found’, or is it jammed?

Exactly my thought! I presume it's jammed. Ten years ago the museum gave me permission to enter the tank, but I didn't try to turn the turret!

I would not focus on the terrain you see in the pictures.

Well David did got me thinking! All sources say the tank was moved from the battlefield to the museum, but I agree with David that the look of the terrain in some of the early pictures is somewhat similar to what the resting place of the tank would have looked like after some exploding mines! Than again....I guess moving around a Crab without a right hand track in soft sand, will give a similar look.

[Alex van de Wetering]

The dark rectangular mark could be the name or another marking painted out, that happened quite often after a vehicle was struck off strength

I can confirm that it actually says "Avalon" in white in a picture of it early in it's museum life. I have no clue why it shows up as a dark patch in later pictures, as this was already when it was a museum exhibit.

Summing up, we would need to get access to the war diaries of the two regiments mentioned above and see which Crabs were lost due to mines and/or enemy fire.

I was hoping the war diaries were to be found online somewhere, but no luck so far. I think I will send a request to the UK National Archives.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Attached are some close-ups of the impacts on Avalon. In the first picture you can make out a larger circle of small damages around some of the penetrations.

In case anyone wonders...that CSI-thingy is my lazy-mans tape measure for scale modelling....the small squares are 1x1cm. the larger ones 5x5cm.

Alex

Impact0.jpg Impact1.jpg Impact2.jpg Impact3.jpg Impact4.jpg

[Alex van de Wetering]

And some pictures of the inside. I am afraid the camera flash and rust makes the penetrations hard to see, so I added some arrows to make it a bit clearer.

Dommage1.JPG Dommage2.JPG Dommage3.JPG Dommage4.jpg Dommage5.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

I was hoping the war diaries were to be found online somewhere, but no luck so far. I think I will send a request to the UK National Archives.

This may be of help:

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...d-war-research

[Alex van de Wetering]

This may be of help:

Thanks Hanno; I visit the Archives website regularly.

These are the ones to study:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/C4440973
https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/C4440950

It says you can send a request for a quotation for a copy of the documents. Some members on ww2talk also offer to scan items in the National Archives; I just don't know the current options given the Covid troubles.


The recommendation for William Hall is available online though
https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/C9050525
It does describe his actions at Overloon, but sadly there are no details on the name or census number of his tank.

[Maurice Donckers]

this flail could be Avalon , look at the mounting position of the track links on the turret , just it still has the cover on the front of the flail drive with 53 and 79th on . But off course there are more tanks with spare links on the turret .

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

I think I have seen tall boxes like the one on the left side of the Crab, on both sides of a Crab on display at Borden. They might be Chalk Boxes used to mark either side of the trail being cleared.

In a couple of the photos you posted showing the left side of the Crab, just forward of this tall box, there is a dark rectangular mark. Hard to tell if it is where something was fitted to the hull at one time or possibly a marking in a dark paint like a four or five letter word. Part of a WD number in white can be seen further aft on the left side.

You mean this? That's strange, don't think I've seen this type of fitting before.

The dark rectangular mark could be the name or another marking painted out, that happened quite often after a vehicle was struck off strength.

Avalon-museum_redlined.jpg