Centurion Arrives in BC

[Perry Kitson]

Here is a photo of the Centurion in question, with ROF serial numbers. I photographed this tank two years ago while visiting the former CFB Cornwallis, where it has sat for some time until now. There was a plaque attached to the left rear side skirt, if still there, it may state when this tank was "placed" at Cornwallis.

[Ed Storey]

I have been looking over my list of Canadian CFRs and there was a Centurion Mk 5 53-81190 but I do not have its' particular WD No. The joy with CFRs is that even though the system is set up with the first two digits being the year and the last five being unique to a particular vehicle, I have not yet in over a decade of study seen the last five numbers being used twice at the same time. So for example I have not encountered say 52-81190 and a 53-81190 being used at the same time. Generally what happens is once a CFR is discontinued then the last five can then be reissued to another vehicle with a different year and I have seen this occur with quite a few of the older CFRs, such as those to the M37CDNs, which were reissued to newer model vehicles. Unfortunately once the number is reissued the data for the older vehicle is not retained which makes study and recording very difficult.

In the case of British manufactured AFVs, like the Ferret and the Centurion, Canada recorded the War Department Number as a form of serial number. The WD number consisted of two numbers/two letters/two numbers and I must admit am not sure how the British allocation worked for particular vehicle types although I do know that WD No. is used on the licence plates of British military vehicles. As I stated in an earlier post, the WD No. along with the CFR was stamped into a brass plaque which was mounted inside the hull of the AFV. Perhaps like the Ferret the CFR was also stamped somewhere on the hull.

My records correlating Centurion CFRs to WD Nos is very much a patchwork with more holes then patches but I can report that the nearest Centurion to 53-81190 in which I have most of the data; Centurion Mk 5 53-81185 was listed with a WD No. as 16 BA 14. Of course just to make the whole process more challenging, where I do have a consecutive series of CFRs with corresponding WD Nos., the WD Nos. are out of sequence.

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I have been looking over my list of Canadian CFRs and there was a Centurion Mk 5 53-81190 but I do not have its' particular WD No. (...) In the case of British manufactured AFVs, like the Ferret and the Centurion, Canada recorded the War Department Number as a form of serial number. The WD number consisted of two numbers/two letters/two numbers and I must admit am not sure how the British allocation worked for particular vehicle types although I do know that WD No. is used on the licence plates of British military vehicles.

http://armedforcesmuseum.ca/british-army-veh-numbering/

Found this years ago when I was trying to work out something regarding a Saladin and put it up on the museum page, as the original source I can't even pull up through archive.org anymore. It gives the various ranges/ years/ vehicle types etc. and does list a bunch of Cents in the "16 BA XX" range but by no means all of them.

[Robin Craig]

I followed your link to the museum gallery, any way to enable them to enlarge please?

[Ed Storey]

The VRN list answers a number of questions I had with respect to the way in which they were allotted. Thank you for posting it.

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by Robin Craig

I followed your link to the museum gallery, any way to enable them to enlarge please?

Yes, I thought they would post as thumbnails which a click would allow you to see in full resolution but something went haywire. I'll be fixing that.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I have been looking over my list of Canadian CFRs and there was a Centurion Mk 5 53-81190 but I do not have its' particular WD No. The joy with CFRs is that even though the system is set up with the first two digits being the year and the last five being unique to a particular vehicle, I have not yet in over a decade of study seen the last five numbers being used twice at the same time. So for example I have not encountered say 52-81190 and a 53-81190 being used at the same time. Generally what happens is once a CFR is discontinued then the last five can then be reissued to another vehicle with a different year and I have seen this occur with quite a few of the older CFRs, such as those to the M37CDNs, which were reissued to newer model vehicles. Unfortunately once the number is reissued the data for the older vehicle is not retained which makes study and recording very difficult.

In the case of British manufactured AFVs, like the Ferret and the Centurion, Canada recorded the War Department Number as a form of serial number. The WD number consisted of two numbers/two letters/two numbers and I must admit am not sure how the British allocation worked for particular vehicle types although I do know that WD No. is used on the licence plates of British military vehicles. As I stated in an earlier post, the WD No. along with the CFR was stamped into a brass plaque which was mounted inside the hull of the AFV. Perhaps like the Ferret the CFR was also stamped somewhere on the hull.

My records correlating Centurion CFRs to WD Nos is very much a patchwork with more holes then patches but I can report that the nearest Centurion to 53-81190 in which I have most of the data; Centurion Mk 5 53-81185 was listed with a WD No. as 16 BA 14. Of course just to make the whole process more challenging, where I do have a consecutive series of CFRs with corresponding WD Nos., the WD Nos. are out of sequence.

Thank you for posting those two cards although I often wonder if posts get read and understood completely. The quote is from Post 14. Apparently I was not clear enough and you just found out that you require the WD number to trace British vehicles.....

[Mike Cecil]

Andy,

Interesting list and quite useful, thanks for posting it. Someone put in a lot of work to compile it.

One aspect to note regarding the Australian vehicles listed: the first 60 (169000 to 169059) were not built as Mk.5, but Mk.3, and such items as the dozer equipped and driver training vehicles were originally built as MBTs.

The cards also throw up the ZR series, which I didn't see on that list. These were the tanks that had originally been allocated T numbers but were swung over to the new system when it came into existence circa 1950.

I didn't see the MS series on there, either, which I understand were vehicles for foreign sales in the late 50s and early 60s. The Australian bridgelayers were in that series.

Perhaps the Brits on the forum could provide more comment?

Regards

Mike

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Thank you for posting those two cards although I often wonder if posts get read and understood completely. The quote is from Post 14. Apparently I was not clear enough and you just found out that you require the WD number to trace British vehicles.....

Thanks, Ed, but no - no reading comprehension issues here. I was hoping against hope that Bovington may have had some maint. or production record or other which might match Hull No. to VRN in the case of the Cents even if that was a bit like believing in Santa Claus. I've tried to track Ferrets and Saladins in the past with nothing but hull nos. to go on but as you say...it doesn't work like that.

[Dan Martel]

From another forum I've learned that Centurions were produced (not including early test vehicles and Mk 2's) from 1948 (Mk 3) to 1960 (Mk 10). The overwhelming majority of production vehicles were Mk 3's with 2833 built from 1948 to 1956.

As I recall reading elsewhere there were five different turret styles as well during the production run, and just to make it more confusing the turret styles did not necessarily co-relate to the hull style.

The last WD number assigned to a new build Mk 10 was 03DA03 on March 30, 1962.

Cheers,
Dan.

[David Herbert]

Remember that the army registration number stayed with the hull regardless of how many times it was rebuilt. So it is possible to find photos of very different vehicles with the same registration because it is the same hull rebuilt several times.
David

[Ed Storey]

So we have a Centurion with no identifiable WD number and a questionable CFR, how would anyone come to conclusion that this particular AFV which sat outside at Cornwallis for several decades actually served in Korea?

[Robin Craig]

Thank you for this, its helps another current project I am involved with. Again with similar transfer issues

[Jason Ginn]

Ed do you know if by chance the cents CAR's used the last 3 of the hull number? Just noticed in the pic the CAR matches the ROF hull number 190.

IiRC the CAR prefixes werent gospel. They seem to be used for date of delivery instead of contract depending in the order sizes and delivery dates for some vehicles.

Just a thought.

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I have been looking over my list of Canadian CFRs and there was a Centurion Mk 5 53-81190 but I do not have its' particular WD No. The joy with CFRs is that even though the system is set up with the first two digits being the year and the last five being unique to a particular vehicle, I have not yet in over a decade of study seen the last five numbers being used twice at the same time. So for example I have not encountered say 52-81190 and a 53-81190 being used at the same time. Generally what happens is once a CFR is discontinued then the last five can then be reissued to another vehicle with a different year and I have seen this occur with quite a few of the older CFRs, such as those to the M37CDNs, which were reissued to newer model vehicles. Unfortunately once the number is reissued the data for the older vehicle is not retained which makes study and recording very difficult.

In the case of British manufactured AFVs, like the Ferret and the Centurion, Canada recorded the War Department Number as a form of serial number. The WD number consisted of two numbers/two letters/two numbers and I must admit am not sure how the British allocation worked for particular vehicle types although I do know that WD No. is used on the licence plates of British military vehicles. As I stated in an earlier post, the WD No. along with the CFR was stamped into a brass plaque which was mounted inside the hull of the AFV. Perhaps like the Ferret the CFR was also stamped somewhere on the hull.

My records correlating Centurion CFRs to WD Nos is very much a patchwork with more holes then patches but I can report that the nearest Centurion to 53-81190 in which I have most of the data; Centurion Mk 5 53-81185 was listed with a WD No. as 16 BA 14. Of course just to make the whole process more challenging, where I do have a consecutive series of CFRs with corresponding WD Nos., the WD Nos. are out of sequence.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Perry Kitson

Here is a photo of the Centurion in question, with ROF serial numbers.

I posted this tank's ROF serial number on another site to see if anyone might have been able to provide a rundown of its service history. While no one has, I was referred to the Tank Museum at Bovington. For a small fee it appears they will provide a vehicle history card for those who request it. The request page can be found here.

Anyone with a little spare cash will be able to see if the tank went to Korea or not, assuming it's the same tank.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by Dan Martel

I posted this tank's ROF serial number on another site to (...) I was referred to the Tank Museum at Bovington. For a small fee it appears they will provide a vehicle history card for those who request it.

Yes, once I see if there's any proper data plate inside this thing I'll be talking to Bovington...but I didn't have that link, so cheers.

The source of the Korea-thing initially was a communication from Borden to Cornwallis which reads:

“They [Borden] have researched the history and that particular Centurion was the only one [currently in Canada that was] in Korea”

That became a sound bite fragment which got picked up by one press outlet and reinterpreted into "the last Centurion in Canada" - which other press folks just quoted and ran with. Had we known in advance that the copy was going to read like that we would've corrected it before it spread, but it didn't work out that way, and once things get out into the media they take on a life of their own. No surprises there to any of us who've been interviewed and misquoted or quoted out of context before, or quoted in a jenga-like puzzle of reordered sound bites.

The 'stolen valour'/ hitching-a-ride thing from someone up there aways...really? Despite the fact CN's community spirit and generosity got it transported across the country - and Brent and Carrie Hill from Lumpy's Lowbed got it to our local Legion for Remembrance Day...there were still huge costs involved in craneloading at Cornwallis - transporting it to the railhead - craning it on to the flatcar...all of which was borne by Mr. Newby so at least *some* vets and other folks *West* of the Rockies would have a chance to see an example of something they'd otherwise have to book WestJet for. I don't really see a downside to that - but I notice throughout this thread that some folks are grasping for one regardless.

It's a lot easier just to ask the people involved some basic questions vs. some of the stuff in this thread, but...with some folks there seems to be this compulsion to get political over everything and take the Low Road. Not really sure who that serves. Certainly not the museum community. Certainly not the collector community. And certainly not the public.

Andy Hill

[Ed Storey]

I'd be really curious to see the chain of documentary evidence which traces 53-81190 back to service use in Korea. It would be a stunning revelation IF such documentation actually existed - I hope it does, but I am not holding my breath.

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I'd be really curious to see the chain of documentary evidence which traces 53-81190 back to service use in Korea. It would be a stunning revelation IF such documentation actually existed - I hope it does, but I am not holding my breath.

Again...without knowing what Borden found or how they found it...this is all we have.

Opening the hatches today for a look inside for a data plate. If that doesn't work I'll see if Bovington can work with the ROF number alone. Either way when they get back to me...I will get back to MLU.

[Ed Storey]

Why not first check with the Base Borden museum to see what they have?

[jdmcm]

Our military vehicle community in BC is a bit splintered to say the least, most of the groups seem to harbor more than a little animosity for the others, and some of our more colorful characters are known Canada wide. Andy has a good point that when Newby is involved people always assume the worst, but I think everyone would have to admit, even Ian's camp that he has brought a great deal of this on himself over the years, so the reputation he has garnered is not totally undeserved.

Very glad to see the Centurion here...much like tanks in general, you can never have enough Centurions

John

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Why not first check with the Base Borden museum to see what they have?

Yes. On that too. Didn't have a POC there until just this a.m.

I've sent info off to Bovington to see what they come up with, but sadly there aren't any data plates left inside (getting the partially ajar driver's hatch open enough to crawl about inside required the help of the M816 wrecker - despite lots of heat and penetrating oil.)

Anyone know if the CFR would be stamped somewhere on the hull or turret the way we did with other things like M37s etc.?