RAAC Centurions in Vietnam....color?

[jdmcm]

Would anyone have a paint code that matches the overall olive drab color that Australian centurions were painted in Vietnam? Did this color differ at all from the tanks which never left Australia?

John

[Tony Smith]

There was no special paint scheme for Australia vehicles in SVN.

Australian vehicles up to Apr 67 (Approx.) were mostly (exception: M113 fov) painted Deep Bronze Green, nominally the same as BS381c No224 DBG, but evidence shows that the Australian DBG was a blacker shade than the British colour.

After 4/67, an new colour was introduced for A and B vehicles. It is not certain on the origin of the colour, as it was a totally new Australian Standard 7650/ADE(M) and the Semi-Gloss colour was Olive Drab 146/1. There were also codes for Flat OD 139/2 and full Gloss 160/2. There is no direct equivalent for this shade in BS381c or FS595a. It has been held in Military Modelling circles for a long time that the colour was "quite close" to FS595a 34087, but this colour has been deleted from the current US Standard FS595b.

Australian Centurions (which arrived in Vietnam in Jan 68, and therefore in the new Olive Drab) had from time to time items replaced due to damage or wear (road wheels, storage bins, etc) that came through the supply system still painted in the original DBG, and were often left that way for some time.

[jdmcm]

Thank you Tony

I am wondering how to best go about this paint color hunt, I am thinking Flat OD 139/2 is what I am after, now need to still figure out what color that will be close to here in North America

John

[Mike Cecil]

Hi John

I could send you an official colour standard plate for each:

Olive Drab Full Gloss: Ref 7650/ADE(M) 146-1/2 issued Nov 1967
Olive Drab Semi-Gloss Ref 7650/ADE(M) 146-1/3 issued June 1987
Olive Drab Lustreless Ref 7650/ADE(M) 146-1/1. issued Nov 1967

The initial batches of Centurion tanks were deployed to South Vietnam painted in Lustreless. From about the end of 1968, replacement Centurions arrived painted in semi-gloss to decrease the maintenance requirements. Re-painting in SVN was undertaken with lustreless in the first instance, until stocks ran out, then semi-gloss. There is an outline of paints used on Aust vehicles in SVN in the appendices of 'Mud & Dust - Aust Vehicles and Artillery in Vietnam'.

As Tony noted, repair parts direct from the UK and from stocks held in Australia (and some sourced from New Zealand) were finished in Deep Bronze Green BSC381, and as far as Centurion was concerned, were often bolted on without repainting. Bins, barrels, etc have all been noted in DBG.

Mike

[jdmcm]

Hi Mike

Of the three colors is there one that represents the mission in Vietnam more than the others? I would really like to find a close match. Would it be too much to ask to have you send the color plates? It's kind of like building a full size Airfx model of an RAAC centurion in Vietnam, would be great to do it right! And yes I am sure one day the tank will get a facelift to Canadian turnout, but currently I am fascinated with the Vietnam war era and specifically armor from that period hence the desire to build a Mk5/1 RAAC Centurion

Regards
John

[Mike Cecil]

For ease of maintenance (just like Aust MVs in SVN), I'd use the semi-gloss. The colour is the same for all three, just the degree of gloss changes (at least, that's the theory). Anyway, decide when you receive the colour plates.

I forget the origin of your Cent - it's one of the ex-'Courage Under Fire' movie vehicles, isn't it?

Given your interest, you may learn a lot from Stephen White's thread on the Armortek forum about researching & building his 1/6th scale Centurion that model's 169064, a Cent that served in South Vietnam. He has gone to extraordinary lengths to get every detail right. Much of that research will be applicable to your restoration.

http://www.armortek.co.uk/Forum3b/vi...61bbce95a21fd8

Mike

[jdmcm]

Hi Mike

thank you that would be awesome, and I appreciate the thread, very helpful! My Centurion began life as a Mk3 gun tank, then upgraded to Mk5 (Brownings vs Besa), then it had the turret removed and it became a bridge layer, then finally a test bed for huge cannon.


Following this and the MOD losing interest it languished in the contractors compound until saved by outlaw UK tank rescuer and general fellow tank nut, Rick Wedlock. Rick installed a Mk3 turret back on that came from Melvin Cordwell's auction. So now we are back at the start. The Courage Under Fire tank is owned by my friend here and it is once again getting lots of work as an ersatz Abrams. You can see it very clearly in Battle for the Planet of the Apes (new version) Thanks again Mike, you are an irreplaceable source for Centurion info and especially Aus Centurions

Best Regards
John

[Mike Cecil]

Thanks John,

Envelope went into yesterday's mail.

Regards

Mike

[jdmcm]

Awesome Mike thank you! That thread with the fellow building the Amortek Centurion is incredible. Strangely I face several similar problems. My Centurion is a Mk5 hull, not a Mk5/1 so no up-armoring on the glacis plate. Of course this can be done, relatively easy from mild steel I would think, but does one want to needlessly add that weight for purely aesthetics? Also my turret being a Mk3 has a different position for the loaders hatch, though I am confident I have read of at least one RAAC Centurion that went to Vietnam that way.

Regards
John

[Mike Cecil]

John,

You would have great difficulty converting the Mk3...Mk5 to a Mk5/1 as per RAAC in Svn as all but one tank (a dozer) had the L6A1 .50 cal ranging gun (RG) fitted, which necessitated the boring of an additional aperture through the mantlet, and a complete change of MG mounts, internal stowage, and so on. The up-armour is easy by comparison to adding the RG.

Radio/wireless fit might also be an issue: Aust tanks were fitted with Larkspur, so unless your Mk3 turret was upgraded to Larkspur at some stage, then it is possibly still fitted for WS19/88AFV sets (different mounting studs, antennae mounts, and so on).

Not sure about the early Mk3 loader's hatch orientation on upgraded Aust Cents deployed to SVN: I'd have to check my notes (quite a while since I've looked at Cent stuff). I have a feeling the Aust tanks with early (angled) position loaders hatches were part of the later (1971) purchase of tanks from Brit stocks in Hong Kong, which of course, were not deployed to SVN, but as I said, I'd have to check.

Glad the Armortek thread is of interest.

Mike

[jdmcm]

Hi Mike

I am pretty sure I have come across a site, perhaps steel-tripod, that showed at least one Mk3 style turret on a ex-SVN tank. I will search for it as well. Tim Vibert has all the machine gun mounts to add the RNG, boring the mantlet should be easy enough (he says having no real idea). Again, would like to be accurate but I am not trying to fool anyone that this was an actual RAAC tank that went to Vietnam. Perhaps just mounting the omega brackets and road wheels on the glacis will be sufficient, as I am sure the next owner will have his or her own idea how the tank should be presented. And lets face it we are only one late night documentary on the October war away before we are breaking out the Sinai grey!

John

[jdmcm]

This two pictures seem to show a Centurion with SVN modifications but no .50 ranging gun. The second seems to be Mk5 without the up-armored glacis...even though the track guards look like the way they modified them in SE Asia, perhaps the 2nd picture is not a SVN tank?







A Centurion Mk V/1 tank, (ARN 169017), from C Squadron, 1st Armoured Regiment, which was commanded by 37709 Sergeant (Sgt) Stan Hanuszewicz (nick named ham sandwich).







Definitely still carrying the Mk3 turret with angled loaders hatch...

So I guess what I am getting it is, there seems to be no real combination that is "wrong" when it comes to these tanks...or is there???

[Mike Cecil]

Sorry to ruin the theory, John, but the turret currently on 169017 (gate guard @ 1 Brigade, Palmerston, NT the last time I saw it) was transferred to that hull in the 1970s from an ex-British Army Centurion sourced from Hong Kong. A rear view of that turret will show you that is has the rear escape hatch, too. It's a really early turret.

2nd image: 169052 did not serve in SVN. It was one of the tanks not uparmoured to Mk5/1 standard, but remained as a Mk.5 with Aust mods such as the L6A1 RG. Virtually all track guards on Aust Cents were shortened in this way by the time they were withdrawn from service in 1977. Note also the DBG paint on the manlet visible beneath the ripped mantlet cover. I'm pretty sure I know where this image was taken, too: Bowna, NSW.

Regards

Mike

[Tony Smith]

John, Shane Lovell has written an excellent booklet on the detail modifications of the Australian Centurions in Vietnam, although this is now out of print. You might be able find leftover copies of "Australian Military Briefs No3, Australian Centurions in Vietnam" through the publisher's distributors http://www.mheaust.com.au/MHE/distributor.htm

Shane has also written an addenda to this booklet, but it is only online, not published as a second edition. This addenda is at http://www.mheaust.com.au/Aust/Resea...entaddinfo.htm, and also includes a link to a discussion of Centurion turrets.

[jdmcm]

AAHHH YES! The coveted Shane Lovell book which still eludes me...I am on the hunt Tony, but it is not easy to come by! And Mike as for the Mk 3 turret, I have clearly brought a spoon to a knife fight...

[Mike Cecil]

Couple of copies available here, John. How desperate for a copy are you !!??

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea...ions&kn=&isbn=

PM sent, too....

Mike

[rob love]

Or keep an eye on ebay. Here is one that sold last week for a more reasonable price: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Australian-...kAAOSw3eRcshVl

[jdmcm]

I have to thank Mike Cecil for providing me with the actual color plates from the Australian Military Forces, so very considerate, no excuse to screw up the color now! Thanks Mike!