16" 8 bolt Split Rims for 1.5 ton Australian Chevrolet Trucks

[Philippe Jeanneau]

Looking for information, specifically the width and backspace of the 16" (8 bolt) split wheels fitted to 1.5 ton Australian Chevrolet trucks between the years 1940-1945. The posting below is from February 4th. Thank you.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/66266488488/

[Tony Smith]

I know you've already asked these questions repeatedly before, so I'm not sure what further information you are expecting..

The 30Cwt CMP , MCP and 1533X2 trucks are all standard Canadian designs and the 16" rim is the the common 16x6.0 design used by the WD/DND (ie Universal to Ford, Chev, Morris, Bedford), not just Australian trucks.

[Philippe Jeanneau]

Indeed I have, but I have only obtained some of the information, so I hope that if I keep asking someone else might pick up the fact that the backspace on these wheels is still a mystery... Mind you, I have asked for the backspace and not the offset...

[Andrew H.]

What do you mean by "back space" and "off-set"? These are not terms I am familiar with.

[Lang]

Here is the definition explained

https://www.tyresizecalculator.com/w...el-backspacing

[Andrew H.]

Does this photo help? These are the 16-inch split-rim wheels on our LRDG 1533X2 truck.

[Philippe Jeanneau]

It sure does... I imagine that the wider half of the wheel fits against the hub? and if you were to place a straight edge on that side and measure the distance to the center it would be about 4.00"? Are they original to your vehicle? if not, what do they fit originally?

[Jacques Reed]

Hi Philippe,

Using Lang's link definition on my Ford Kelsey 16" CMP wheels the setback is 4-1/4" (108 mm) as measured.

A bit of parallax in the photo but when I got down to the level to the wheel the measurement to the bottom of the angle iron from the mounting flange is 4-1/4"

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

[David Herbert]

Philippe,
You may not know this but ALL these British style MOD split rim 16" wheels, whether British, Canadian or Australian (though I think they were made in Canada?) have exactly the same dimensions and are fully interchangeable between vehicles regardless of tire size. The same with the 20" ones except that there were two styles of them - 8 stud dished centre ( used on 3 ton trucks) and 10 stud flat centre (used on Scammells and Matadors etc)

The British ones have BSW threaded studs vs the American threads on the Canadian ones and for some strange reason the valve cut out is in a slightly different position which prevents mixing front and back halves but as assemblies they are the same.

The only exception to this that I know of is the six stud version used on Dodge D212 and Chevy Heavy Utilities. I believe but am not certain that these used the same pressings as the 8 stud ones. Could someone confirm or correct that please.

David

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

Philippe,
You may not know this but ALL these British style MOD split rim 16" wheels, whether British, Canadian or Australian (though I think they were made in Canada?) have exactly the same dimensions and are fully interchangeable between vehicles regardless of tire size. The same with the 20" ones except that there were two styles of them - 8 stud dished centre ( used on 3 ton trucks) and 10 stud flat centre (used on Scammells and Matadors etc)

The British ones have BSW threaded studs vs the American threads on the Canadian ones and for some strange reason the valve cut out is in a slightly different position which prevents mixing front and back halves but as assemblies they are the same. (No, even the Canadian made wheels have the wheel-half studs as 7/8"-11 BSF, same as the British wheels. It is the actual wheels studs in the hubs (and corresponding nuts) that are BS, SAE, etc as to suit the vehicle.)

The only exception to this that I know of is the six stud version used on Dodge D212 and Chevy Heavy Utilities (and F8A and Lynx I Scout Car). I believe but am not certain that these used the same pressings as the 8 stud ones. Could someone confirm or correct that please. (Not the same, the 6 stud wheels have bead dimensions to accept 16" taper bead US tires, the 8 stud accept flat-bead British-style tyres.)

David

Also, with the thickness of the steel used in the wheel discs, the offset is "0" on the 16" rims.

[Mike K]

Australian 30 cwt MCP Chevys were fitted with 900-18 not 900-16 .

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Philippe Jeanneau

Looking for information, specifically the width and backspace of the 16" (8 bolt) split wheels fitted to 1.5 ton Australian Chevrolet trucks between the years 1940-1945. The posting below is from February 4th. Thank you.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/66266488488/

Here are Philippe's pictures:



Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/6626...7100302738489/

[Bob Carriere]

Regarding the 6 stud wheels used by the HUP and now I learn also by the Dodge axles of RHD drive Canadian made trucks.

There are some slight differences wed have observed..... the six stud wheels MUST have a different taper than a regular CMP 8 bolts version......as the 900x16 tires do slip down easier than the 5 degree C15a rims.

The six stud wheels/rims I have seen all have the Kelsey-Hayes stamping which includes the date of manufacturing.

It also seems from comparing GM parts listing that the early first 200 Lynx Mk I also shared the six stud brake drum on the front axle.

Comments????

[Bob Carriere]

Thanks Tony for clearly highlighting the differences of the six bolt rim.

[Bob Carriere]

The famous Australian rim was therefore an 18 inch rim of similar concept/design made by stamping two halves in 1/4 inch steel plate.
Do we know who made them??? and probably sourced in Australia. Were they stamped by the maker like the Kelsey-Hayse rims.

Second question.... concerning the origin of the brake drum posted last in Hanno's posting........... I have a similar picture taken from the wrecks of North Africa...... attached...... from the picture I have concluded that it is a Chevrolet chassis from the cleanly sand blasted sheet metal, indentation on the frame for locating a LHD steering box and the spring layout. The fender seems to indicate an earlier version of LRDG using a 38-39 or 1940 round fender model.......

Does any one have a larger picture depicting that same vehicle but in larger format showing the cab style. So far I have not been able to find any references in GM part manuals for that elusive riveted brake drum and I have many.......

Thanks

Bob C.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Regarding the 6 stud wheels used by the HUP and now I learn also by the Dodge axles of RHD drive Canadian made trucks.

Dodge T-212 8-cwt truck only. The MCP 15-cwt’s have the same 8-bolt WD split rim as CMP 15-cwt trucks.

here are some slight differences wed have observed..... the six stud wheels MUST have a different taper than a regular CMP 8 bolts version......as the 900x16 tires do slip down easier than the 5 degree C15a rims.

The six stud wheels/rims I have seen all have the Kelsey-Hayes stamping which includes the date of manufacturing.

It also seems from comparing GM parts listing that the early first 200 Lynx Mk I also shared the six stud brake drum on the front axle.

Comments????

The six-stud CMP wheel was used on 8-cwt trucks. It doesn’t have a different bead taper, it simply has a smaller diameter as explained in Mike’s thread here:
http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1594

HTH,
Hanno

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

The famous Australian rim was therefore an 18 inch rim of similar concept/design made by stamping two halves in 1/4 inch steel plate.
Do we know who made them??? and probably sourced in Australia. Were they stamped by the maker like the Kelsey-Hayse rims.

Bob C.

The manufacture of the Chev 18" split rims is mentioned in the GMH 'War Record' book. My understanding is, GMH made the rims themselves , GMH had a huge press for the job . Don't know where Ford Australia got theirs from . Anybody know ?

[Bob Carriere]

GM did make the wheel stamping initially but was later taken over by Kelsey-Hayse.......

In view of the link of the six bolt rim to the 8 cwt, I am surprised they were used on the early Lynx armored vehicle...... unless they had more than one version of the six bolt brake drum / rim ....... or it explains why they went for the standard 8 bolt set up later in production.

Bob C.

[David Herbert]

Remember guys that the six bolt 16" rim was used on 8cwt trucks that had 9.25 - 16 tires not 9.00 - 16 (although I am not so sure about Lynx I ). 9.25 - 16 are lower profile and rather lighter construction than WD 9.00 - 16. They have not been available for a very long time. I don't think that there were any British WD vehicles that used 9.25 - 16 on the heavy style split rims so it is quite possible that they didn't fit. The main British user were the Humber 4x4 range and they had their own much lighter design of split rim with five studs.

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

In view of the link of the six bolt rim to the 8 cwt, I am surprised they were used on the early Lynx armored vehicle...... unless they had more than one version of the six bolt brake drum / rim ....... or it explains why they went for the standard 8 bolt set up later in production.

... it explains why they went for the 8-bolt 15-cwt split rim later in production!

H.

[Grant Bowker]

Hanno,
I haven't measured the two types of Canadian 16" rims to confirm actual size and shape but what you are saying ("The six-stud CMP wheel was used on 8-cwt trucks. It doesn’t have a different bead taper, it simply has a smaller diameter") is in conflict with the AEDB design record that states the rim for use with 9.25-16 tires has a 5 degree rim base taper and the rim for use with 9.00-16 and 10.50-16 tires has a 1-1/2 degree taper. The AEDB record doesn't give a diameter at the bead seat other than the nominal 16".

Mike's measurements (taken from tires) show both a smaller diameter and a greater taper (assuming the tire wall was of similar thickness at the bead seat) for tires intended for use with the "American" rim.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

The six-stud CMP wheel ....... doesn’t have a different bead taper, it simply has a smaller diameter ...[/url]

It actually HAS BOTH.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Philippe Jeanneau

Looking for information, specifically the width and backspace of the 16" (8 bolt) split wheels fitted to 1.5 ton Australian Chevrolet trucks between the years 1940-1945.

But all of these are 10 bolt rims?

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

GM did make the wheel stamping initially but was later taken over by Kelsey-Hayes.......

GM Canada made them for Chevrolet vehicles, while Kelsey Hayes made them for Ford Canada and Dodge Canada. English WD wheels for Morris, Bedford and Austin are made by Dunlop.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Second question.... concerning the origin of the brake drum posted last in Hanno's posting........... I have a similar picture taken from the wrecks of North Africa...... attached...... from the picture I have concluded that it is a Chevrolet chassis from the cleanly sand blasted sheet metal, indentation on the frame for locating a LHD steering box and the spring layout. The fender seems to indicate an earlier version of LRDG using a 38-39 or 1940 round fender model.......

This is not necessarily a LHD vehicle, in fact it is more likely not to be.

Canadian Built Ford, Chev and Dodge vehicles have the mountings for both RHD and LHD steering boxes on the chassis, even the CMP, although no-one has ever forund a LHD steering box that will fit a CMP chassis!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Grant Bowker

I haven't measured the two types of Canadian 16" rims to confirm actual size and shape but what you are saying ("The six-stud CMP wheel was used on 8-cwt trucks. It doesn’t have a different bead taper, it simply has a smaller diameter") is in conflict with the AEDB design record that states the rim for use with 9.25-16 tires has a 5 degree rim base taper and the rim for use with 9.00-16 and 10.50-16 tires has a 1-1/2 degree taper. The AEDB record doesn't give a diameter at the bead seat other than the nominal 16".

Grant, thanks for correcting me in that the rim base taper differs between the 6-stud and 8-stud WD split rim. Good to see you quoting the AEDB Design Record, it is those primary sources which we need to refer to more often.

I made that remark as most people think only the rim base taper is different, which isn't true - see Tony's remark below. A 3.5 degree difference in rim base taper would go unnoticed when fitting a tyre. A larger rim diameter does.

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

It actually HAS BOTH.

Thanks for clearing that up, Tony.

Hanno

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

The manufacture of the Chev 18" split rims is mentioned in the GMH 'War Record' book. My understanding is, GMH made the rims themselves , GMH had a huge press for the job . Don't know where Ford Australia got theirs from . Anybody know ?

The GM/H 18" rims look quite different to the WD-Pattern 16" and 20" rims in that they have have quite a few more rim-half bolts in a smaller thread than the British design rims.

Ford Australia's rims seem to be more faithful to the British/Canadian design, so I wonder if they are Canadian supplied?

[Tony Smith]

And then there were the heavy-duty 5 stud wheels made by GM/H for the Australian Maple Leaf trucks.

[David Herbert]

Tony,
Are those Maple Leaf 5 stud ones 16" or 18" ? I am guessing 18" as they look very much like the 10 stud GM/H ones and also have twelve studs holding the halves together.

David

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

GM Canada made them for Chevrolet vehicles, while Kelsey Hayes made them for Ford Canada and Dodge Canada. English WD wheels for Morris, Bedford and Austin are made by Dunlop.

I think at least some of the British rims were made by SANKEY .... Was Sankey owned by Dunlop ? Pretty sure my Morris CS8 rims are marked SANKEY but I will have a look. Also found brass wheel nuts on a CS8 I have ....

BTW that's a nice original Maple Leaf truck . Are those 10.50 x 18 tyres