Canadian Centurion tanks question

[rob love]

Turns out I do have the Equipment Logistics Directive here at the museum. Lots of good information. Date on the ELD is 1977, so very near the end.

Re radios: MK5-Mk5/2:
Gun tank: one C42 and one PRC510 or
one VRC46 and one VRC53

Command tank: two C42 and one PRC510 or
two VRC-46

Mk2:

Gun tank: VRC46 and one VRC53
Command tank two VRC46

ARV: a C42 or a VRC46
AVLB: 1 C42 or one VRC46 and one VRC53


Main Armament:
Mk5 20 pr TK mk1
Mk5/2 20 pr TK mk1 or Gun 105mm tank L7A1

Secondary Armament: MK5 C1 GPMG coax with main gun.
Ranging machine gun, Cal 50, L6A1 (mk5/2 only)

Mk2 Main Armament 105mm tank L7A1
Secondary Armament: C1 coax mounted with main gun,
Ranging MG Cal 50 L6A1
Commanders Machine Gun M2HB

There is a while chart showing the variations of the mkV in either Basic, w. RMG, w. I/R, w. RMG & I/R.

There is a chart showing the holdings between Gagetown, CFE, Borden, and LETE, as well as training aids. Then there is the Logistics stock, and total national inventory. Total holdings are as follows:

Mk5 136
Mk5/2 10
MkII 69
ARV 9
AVLB 4

A lot were excess to requirement, mostly mkV and mk2 variants, along with 4 ARV and one bridgelayer.

There is a chart showing CFRs for hard targets. This list was still early so only 11 are listed. All of them were cannibalized.

There is another chart showing 5 of them by CFR for monuments or museum pieces. It specifically notes that they are to be issued " as is" and no work will be undertaken to restore them to serviceable condition.

Later it mentions that the remaining 212 vehicles were going to be sold to Kraus Mafei, but that an option ofr another 14 might be made available as hard targets, which would reduce the number sold to 198.

Again re the main guns, there is a listing of
mkV with 20 pr gun (86, all in Canada),
mk2 with 105 gun (37, all in Europe and another 32 for later release, total 69) ,
mkV with 20 pr (36),
mk5/2 with 105mm gun (9, all from gagetown)

So lots of info for the Centurian fans. I could possibly scan this ELD and make it available to those diehards who want a copy.

[John Genereux]

I spent my 27 year career at St. Hubert and I can tell you that there were 2 Centurion tanks there. One, as stated before, was in front of Mobile command headquarters (to the right of the building) and there was another one parked inside the gate on the right hand side as you entered. It was located in a small park with a ships anchor and a jet aircraft on a pillar with a dummy pilot inside. I don`t know my aircraft that well but it was either a CF-100 or an F-86. Back to the Cent, my buddy moved this tank to the Hillside Armoury in Montreal at least 10-15 years ago. Before moving, they had to see if a common practice back in the early 70`s had been done. The practice was pouring a few cubic yards of cement into an open hatch and then closing it up. My buddy was able to get the hatch open with the crane on a HLVW wrecker and looked inside. The cement was non existent and the inside was pristine and preserved. It looked like it had gone through a refit, driven to the spot and locked up. So somewhere out there is a very good condition Centurion with a complete hull and turret.

[David Herbert]

Malcolm,
Good idea to just run off the rear tank and not refit the tanks either side of the engine. It will transform engine access and you would never have been able to afford to fill them up anyway.

If you have good battery charging facilities the aux gen is almost redundant as its primary role was to supply the radios and BV (kettle) without running the main engine.

David

[Ed Storey]

It appears that the Mk 11 Centurions in Lahr got cut up.

Centurions Cut Up.jpg

[Mike Cecil]

Rob,

Yes please, would appreciate a copy of the ELD.

Thanks

Mike

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

It appears that the Mk 11 Centurions in Lahr got cut up.

Attachment 101229

Perhaps Kraus Maffei decided they were not worth rebuilding, or else merely wanted to get them off the market. If the deal fell through altogether, perhaps that is why more of them made it to monuments or range targets.

I was with the Leopard Sqn in Gagetown back in 1980. I remember trainloads of the Cents waiting to leave. The story back then is that they were going to Switzerland for gun emplacements. I also remember two Centurions and two ferrets parked out on Shirley road waiting to go as hard targets.

[Clifford A. Logan]

I was a tech with the RCD in Germany, '74-'78. The Centurions went away and the leased Leos came aboard. If I remember correctly, there was a team from the Israeli Defence Force sniffing around the Cents at that time. In addition, I just spoke to a buddy who was part of the team that prepared and loaded Canadian based Centurions on a ship for Israel in the '80's. Guess all the Centurions didn't go to Switzerland after all; imagine that!

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Clifford A. Logan

I was a tech with the RCD in Germany, '74-'78.

Welcome Clifford. Any photographs from your time in Germany? All stories are welcome.

Cheers,
Dan.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Attachment 101229

I see two kinds of track in the photos: What looks like all steel dry pin (dead) track, and what looks like rubber pads live track. Was the rubber pad track a direct replacement for the steel track, or was it used primarily on the ARV/AVBL? I note our AVBLs were purchased in the mid 60s, as opposed to 1952/3 like the rest of our fleet.

[Ed Storey]

Yes, there was two types of track in use, I believe the British called the ones with the rubber "Hush Puppy" track. It gave better traction on the roads and didn't destroy them.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

...as its primary role was to supply the... BV (kettle)...

Which is why all British tanks are superior to all others.

Cheers,
Dan.

[David Herbert]

Thanks Dan, we have our priorities sorted !

Rob, the 'hush puppy' track is not a live track, it is dry pin but with moulded on rubber pads to improve running on hard roads. The name is taken from a brand of footwear popular in the '60s or '70s. The two types of track were directly interchangeable, same sprockets etc. The rubber faced hush puppy track came in relatively late so in British service tended to only be used on the specialist versions of Cent as the gun tanks were almost obsolete by then.

We continued with dry pin track longer than almost every other country because they are lighter, easier to work on in the field and of course cheaper. On the other hand they have a shorter life and need constant tightening and can not be refurbished when worn.

David

[rob love]

Looking at the photos, and the curl of the track, it almost looked "live". Just the way it happened to fall I guess.

I'll try to get the ELD scanned tomorrow, otherwise it won't be for another week. Then I'll put the notice on this thread for those who want it to PM me.

All the years I was in, I never saw the ELDs. It was just a couple of years ago when one of the units were divesting of paper copies of everything and going all electronic. I grabbed a truckload of manuals, and these were contained in the bunch. Everything was long obsolete, but the information in them is very down to earth. There are ELDs on the SMP vehicles, the mortars, some of the bridging, various radar and various electronic equipment.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by rob love

Everything was long obsolete, but the information in them is very down to earth. There are ELDs on the SMP vehicles, the mortars, some of the bridging, various radar and various electronic equipment.

You, my friend, have Gold! Any chance of you listing the ELD's you have?

I mean, if it's not too much trouble.

Cheers,
Dan.

Bet you didn't see this coming when you mentioned ELD"s.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

The rubber faced hush puppy track came in relatively late so in British service tended to only be used on the specialist versions of Cent as the gun tanks were almost obsolete by then.

Obsolete to the British, but the cutting edge of tank technology to the Canadians for another decade. Hush puppy tracks were de rigueur on the Mk 11's in Germany.

Cheers,
Dan.

PS: Live track and dead track? Qu'est-ce que c'est?

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Dan Martel

PS: Live track and dead track? Qu'est-ce que c'est?

Live track has rubber bushes on each track pin. The pins may be molded to the pad and end connectors installed, or may be pushed through a hex bushing with interlocking pads. When laid somewhat flat on the ground, the ends tend to curl up.

Dead track is simple pins through track shoes. When laid down it flops flat. Bren carrier track is a good example.

Live track is considered modern....dead track is antique. I always thought the USSR used it the longest, but the Cents may have given them a run for their money.

When I was still in the service around y2K, we got a call from a professor at RMC looking for a section of dead track to use as a training aid. We had nothing in service anymore, but I sent him a short section of bren carrier.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

Malcolm,
Good idea to just run off the rear tank and not refit the tanks either side of the engine.

David

Ensure the rear Aux fuel tank is meticulously cleaned out first. In Australian use, the rear tank in Vietnam was not used for fuel, it was filled with sand for RPG protection for the engine compartment. If these (fuel) tanks in Canadian service were fitted during a European tour where Urban fighting might have been more expected that long range driving, then it could also have been sand-filled as additional protection.

[Malcolm Towrie]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

Ensure the rear Aux fuel tank is meticulously cleaned out first. In Australian use, the rear tank in Vietnam was not used for fuel, it was filled with sand for RPG protection for the engine compartment. If these (fuel) tanks in Canadian service were fitted during a European tour where Urban fighting might have been more expected that long range driving, then it could also have been sand-filled as additional protection.

Tony, 3 years ago when I was last working on the tank, I found the rear fuel tank rusty inside with the worst on the floor (no sand). I cleaned it and vacuumed it as best I good but access isn't good, and sprayed the interior with preservative oil. We'll have to think about what further cleaning we can do, or whether we'll settle for some heavy duty filtering.

Malcolm

[David Herbert]

Or make a new stainless tank using the original fittings and designed in such a way that you can use the last bit of fuel rather than permanently have 20litres going stale.

David

[eddy8men]

i cleaned the long range tank on one of my cents last week. fairly simple to remove the drain plugs and give it the good news with a high pressure steam cleaner.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by rob love

I could possibly scan this ELD and make it available to those diehards who want a copy.

Yes! Oh, God yes! Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!!!!

I mean, if it's not too much trouble.

Cheers,
Dan.