Ontario Museum buys fake German vehicles

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

This must be embarrassing for the museum, but it raises interesting questions.

Almost no historic MV's are completely original and, if so, are probably unusable with considerable 'patina'. The rest contain some degree of restoration ranging from replacement, but original, parts to complete fabrications based on the barest of original bones. Fabrication is sometimes the only way to go and it's the research, skill and detail of the fabricator that makes all the difference.

The other direction is willful adapting away from original for practical reasons: original parts are unavailable, original parts are unreliable or it's just the restorer's choice to do it up to the level they want.

It is up to the purchaser to decide what level of authenticity they want to invest in. Is a 12V conversion acceptable? Mild steel replacement armour? A modern diesel instead of the old flathead? Cosmetic rather than original? And my bugaboo, gloss paint instead of matt? There's all of these out there, and it's all good unless something is misrepresented. Not sure how much responsibility there is on the part of the buyer when that happens. It seems dropping big money should come with a fair bit of caution and research.

[Douglas Greville]

Bruce, regarding the paint. For anyone that wants to have a lasting restoration then gloss paint is necessary to form an impermeable barrier. But it just requires a coat of flat or matt over that to get the correct look.

The reason WW2 vehicles were so prone to rust is that the flat paint was porous as was the red zinc undercoat. So moisture wicked through the paint layers. This explains why you can pick up a part that appears ok but when the paint is cleaned back there is surface rust on the metal.

The other issue with matt, especially on vehicles (usually armour) where diesel and oil are spilled or where oil is necessary to keep hatch hinges etc working is that the oil soaks into the paint. They get grubby really quickly
and it is a losing battle to try and get the oil out of the paint. Hence why a lot of people prefer to do their restoration with either semi-gloss or gloss paint in order to be able to keep the vehicle looking nice.

Regards
Doug

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Douglas Greville

Bruce, regarding the paint. For anyone that wants to have a lasting restoration then gloss paint is necessary to form an impermeable barrier. But it just requires a coat of flat or matt over that to get the correct look.

The reason WW2 vehicles were so prone to rust is that the flat paint was porous as was the red zinc undercoat. So moisture wicked through the paint layers. This explains why you can pick up a part that appears ok but when the paint is cleaned back there is surface rust on the metal.

The other issue with matt, especially on vehicles (usually armour) where diesel and oil are spilled or where oil is necessary to keep hatch hinges etc working is that the oil soaks into the paint. They get grubby really quickly
and it is a losing battle to try and get the oil out of the paint. Hence why a lot of people prefer to do their restoration with either semi-gloss or gloss paint in order to be able to keep the vehicle looking nice.

Regards
Doug

I know...I know...I know...but....

[Peter Samsonov]

This is sadly a very common phenomenon. I see a ton of T-34s getting sold as "the real deal" that are actually post-war Polish or Czechoslovakian production. It's not even very difficult to tell the difference, but unscrupulous sellers will try to press it into the hands of an unsuspecting buyer anyway.

[Ed Storey]

Weather it is fake badges or fake vehicles, there always seems to be someone who can fall prey to not understanding what they are purchasing.

[ajmac]

As has been said it is the misrepresentation that’s the real problem.
I suggested a while back that we should have a scale for originality:
a) Original complete vehicle where 90% of the parts on the vehicle where on it during its wartime service.
b) Based on an original wreck with ID, with many period parts and new fabrications.
c) Not based on an original vehicle but built from period parts.
d) Out and out copy based on parts not from the original production line.

Most of the wartime German armour around today in private hands is a b with more c grades appearing now that digging up parts in Eastern Europe is so popular. The 432 based re-enactment vehicles are d. Apparently there is someone in Europe building 100% new kettengrads which end up being passed off as original to people with money who only have a passing interest in the hobby.

[Lynn Eades]

So Alistair, is that 90% by number of parts, or by weight of parts? or by uniqueness?
Every vehicle is different and it really is down to the buyer to do his homework before he parts with his money.
"Based" is very broad. Is that like a new Spitfire built around an original turnbuckle?
To have a scale would then need adjuticators, like judges for conformity at dog shows. There would be no clarity.
Sorry Alistair I think your plan is flawed.