Borden Flakpanzer

[Robin Craig]

Good day,

Does anyone know why the Flakpanzer was chosen to be worked on over any other vehicle? Is there an order in which other vehicles will be addressed?

Thanks in advance

[Ed Storey]

An order, hehehehe, good one! I suspect unique and German were the criteria. Like the Hetzer before it, I will be surprised if this overly ambitious project ever gets completed.

[Mike Cecil]

Did the Hetzer not get completed? I remember seeing it in a hangar partially dismantled in 1998 or 99 - being 'worked' on by a group of German 'enthusiasts' - with the intention to bring it back to operating condition. What happened to it after that?

I also remember seeing the Flakpanzer outside and in very bad shape - probably got some pre-digital images somewhere - so it could only have become even more run-down since then. Unique but big, big project: who's undertaking it?

Mike

[Ed Storey]

I believe the Hetzer project was suspended and never completed. Here is the latest I have found on the project.

http://pspborden.com/CitizenOnline/?p=525

Apparently there is a Facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/FlakpanzerRestorationProject/

[Mike Cecil]

Thanks Ed.

Mike

[Bob Phillips]

check out the article " Restoration of the Worthington Park Hetzer" at www.pzfahrer.net/borden.html
Looks pretty good to me.
As far as the current project, big job, great work so far from what I see on their facebook page. Lets give them the benefit of the doubt!
BP

[James P]

Originally Posted by Bob Phillips

check out the article " Restoration of the Worthington Park Hetzer" at www.pzfahrer.net/borden.html
Looks pretty good to me.
As far as the current project, big job, great work so far from what I see on their facebook page. Lets give them the benefit of the doubt!
BP

Re. the CFB Borden Jagdpanzer 38 "Looks pretty good to me".....................as they say looks are deceiving and sadly it was not a successful restoration.

[Ed Storey]

"Benefit of the doubt" is great, if this were a high school auto shop project; but it isn't. It is an expensive project on an important and unique piece of German SWW armour, held by a DND museum.

I would have a better felling about this project if there was more information available other than a Facebook page and some dated news media reports.

For a major project like this, the questions I have are;

What is the goal of the project?
Who is the project manager?
Who is in charge of PR/media?
What is the PR/media plan?
Who is in charge of the finances and what is the project budget?
Who is in charge or raising funds and who are the sponsors?
What facilities and equipment are available for the project?
Who is conducting the research?
Who is in charge of acquiring parts?
Who is on the restoration team?
Who is overseeing the quality of the work?
Does anyone working on this project have any experience with a project of this magnitude and if so what was that experience?
Are there examples of previous projects that this team have worked on?
What are the milestones and the end-date for the project?

I don't see any of this on the Facebook page.

[Steve Turner]

Hi Ed,

I don't know the answer to those questions but I did visit the project while I was in the area and it appears they have a big crew working on it. I will ask a friend who is involved if he can answer some of those questions.

Cheers,
-Steve

[B. Harris]

It is in good hands.

[Bob Phillips]

Well, if you are a long time participant in MLU this will be old and familiar ground.
There seems to be great satisfaction in taking a kick at our federal, provincial. even private museums/ restorations because I/we/ you don't like the way they are doing things. I have been involved in this hobby for 40 plus years and yes, there are lots of horror stories and things that could have/should have been done better. DND has a tendency to not want to share its collection with enthusiastic civilians, and who could blame them? Their prime mandate is not vehicle restorations. The CWM takes flak for its operating decisions but regardless of which direction they take, they are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't.
The panzer project needed to happen. It was rotting with neglect. Do you think our entitled populace or Liberal politicians give a dam or have any funds for such a project? I think not. So a group of volunteers has stepped up to the task. Lets give them the benefit of the doubt. Not sure all the answers you want are available ? ... so go volunteer, be a participant and help with the project.
I am sure all constructive input and assistance would be greatly appreciated. BP

[Guy Grenadier]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

"Benefit of the doubt" is great, if this were a high school auto shop project; but it isn't. It is an expensive project on an important and unique piece of German SWW armour, held by a DND museum.

Good day. Thanks for your interest in the project. My name is Guy and I'm a member of the Restoration Team Leadership. I will answer some of your questions below.

I would have a better felling about this project if there was more information available other than a Facebook page and some dated news media reports.

Until our webpage is stood up, you may also follow progress and updates on YouTube.

For a major project like this, the questions I have are;
What is the goal of the project?

Goal: Cosmetic restoration (inside and outside) for indoor storage with a target completion of Dec 2022. Depending on level of success of the cosmetic phase, consideration to be given to further restoration to possibly include making it a runner but this is not the initial intent.

Who is the project manager?

The project is managed by a team of 6 members which for the executive:

Team Lead and project initiator myself (also involved in PR/ sponsorship outreach): Guy D.
Turret and weapons restoration Crew leader: Dave T.
Chassis restoration Crew leader/assistant: Neil H. / Colin A.
Project Manager (using Smart Sheet): Mark P.
PR/Media Coord and Fin Manager: Steve F.

Who is in charge of PR/media?

see above

What is the PR/media plan?

Development of Website: in progress
Videos and photos: Sabot Videos / CFB Borden Base Imagery.
Crowdfunding campaign (planning in progress)

Who is in charge of the finances and what is the project budget?

Based on our business plan: Cosmetic restoration budget is set at 175K CDN.
So far fund raised close to 10k

Who is in charge or raising funds and who are the sponsors?

Steve F. / Myself plus a team of graduates from the marketing department at Georgian College

What facilities and equipment are available for the project?

Under the care of the Borden Museum; currently using building adjacent to main Museum. Also receiving support from RCEME School and Base Maintenance.

Who is conducting the research?

We have a team of three helping out with research and outreach currently engaged with various organisations/experts including; Weald Foundation (UK), Musée des Blindées de Saumur (France), Kevin Wheatcroft Collection (UK), Hilary Louis Doyle (Ireland) Author of several German AFV publications.

Who is in charge of acquiring parts?

Mainly our Crew leaders (turret and chassis) assisted by members of their respective crews.

Who is on the restoration team?

Total of 23 volunteers (including the 3 from Sabot Videos)

Who is overseeing the quality of the work?

Neil H. our senior restorer / Dave T Sr weapons tech

Does anyone working on this project have any experience with a project of this magnitude and if so what was that experience?

Yes three with previous restoration experience, including work done on the Hetzer. We also have three CAF weapons technicians (including a Chief Warrant Officer senior tradesman), one CAF material technician and 2 civilian certified heavy evehicle mechanics. Our project Manager is a certified professional with extensive experience in this field.

Are there examples of previous projects that this team have worked on?

As the current team, this is our first major project of such magnitude.

What are the milestones and the end-date for the project?

End Dec 2022

I don't see any of this on the Facebook page.

More detailed information will be available once the website is stood up.

Hope this answers your questions. Please feel free to follow the progress of the work on FB and YouTube. Once web site is set up, we will announce it on FB.

[moderator's note: edited to separate the questions (in quotes) from the answers]

[Ed Storey]

Thankfully Bob is not your PR guy. I don't think anything I posted was a kick at anyone, the questions were certainly pointed and driven by the fact that beyond a facebook page there was precious little information available about the project. As a result of my questioning the organization behind this project, we at least now have some answers and a completion date.

[Ed Storey]

If I may, I have another question. Since the only reported example of previous experience on a project of this magnitude is that three team members worked on a Hetzer; then is there a final report on this project? I believe that this was also a project involving the Borden museum so I am interested to see the paper trail on that project.

[Guy Grenadier]

Good day,

There is no existing written record or After Action Report (AAR) on the Hetzer restoration. All that can be said is this: The Hetzer restoration was abruptly terminated circa 2005 when the Base commander at the time ordered the WW2 era hanger which was housing the project to be torn down. This was done to reduce base operation expenses and reduce what is called PILT (Property in lieu of Taxes). This is an amount the base must pay the township for every building that it has standing in lieu of municipal taxes since technically, DND does not pay taxes to the township of Essa.

This was outside the museum and the restoration team's power. The restoration project had only a few weeks to react and put an end to its operations... There was a lot of bitterness and resentment since the team was in its 7th year of work at the time.

On a brighter side, a month ago the Hetzer has been moved indoors to prevent an further decay. It is co-located with the Flakpanzer. There is no plan to restore it now but by keeping it indoors we are preventing further decay to some Farley Mowat's legacy.

[Robin Craig]

So,

I am grateful for all the responses and to hear the whereabouts of the Hetzer.

I am perplexed as to why the group would not have tried to finish the Hetzer and not start something new, but then I remind myself I am very guilty of doing that myself many a time.

Ho hum, well, I think we aired some good information. Guy Grenadier are there open says when we can come visit or work nights when we can drop by?

[Perry Kitson]

I can certainly understand the problems facing any group trying to save a piece of Canadian history, even if it does involve a former enemy's vehicle. I have been trying to persuade the powers that be to do something with the "Holy Roller" Sherman here in London. A tank that landed on D-Day with a Canadian armoured regiment. After two internal and external examinations and condition reports to the city, nothing has happened. Even the regiment who operated the tank has not been interested in properly preserving it, let alone restoring it. Kudo's to any group that can initiate that process.

[B. Harris]

If anyone has any history, story's, early photographs or details of this machine the restore group would love to know and research the same.

There must be some ol' timers on here that could share something no matter how trivial.

Thanks for your help and considerations in advance.

Harris